Episode 16: "ANORA"

The TCA is joined by a special guest to cover Steve's "next Best Picture" and Ofili's "one of the best four movies in 2024." In episode 16 we discuss Sean Baker's filmmaking style, the various on-screen relationship dynamics depicted in Baker's latest independent drama, and that final sequence that has got everyone talking. We also talk about how Baker is doing for sex workers what Scorsese did for gangsters, and how this feels like it could be 2024's PARASITE. Will ANORA follow suit by winning the coveted Oscar statuette? Leave us a message and let us know!  TCA Verdict: 9.7/10  

Transcript

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Hello, hello, everyone. I feel like I have to pump up this intro this time because last time Ofili told me I had a very, very somber, very calm introduction to the episode. It fit for the movie, but not for this movie. Okay, okay I hope that was, was that to your standard, sir? Was that good enough for you? I think it's all right. Welcome to another episode of The Cinephiles Aisle. This is like the earliest we're recording following another episode. I'm actually proud of us, bro. I hope we can keep this up. Really do too. I think this is like two weeks since our last episode. Yeah, Yeah actually. Yeah. Unfortunately, we are still at like one a month, so. I mean, baby steps, bro. Baby steps. But we're actually joined today by special guest. I think this is the third guest that we've ever had on the Cinephiles, so this is very special. You know I feel like one guest or two guests feel like mistakes are just here and there. But three, like, we're an episode that has guests, you know. Yeah, we're a show where, like, we have people come on. Yeah, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, people come on. Yeah, so ladies and gentlemen, welcome, Misgana. Hey. We need We need them sound boards. I feel like I got one of them, but I don't know how to click it on in the moment. but yeah. Misgana, we love having you on the pod. You've been an avid listener and a very good friend. We've watched, I think we watched The Critic and something else together, but like we talk a lot more often. Yeah, I forgot what movie we watched. Something that was a Tubi original that was horrible. I remember that. Oh yeah, The Witcher. I don't remember what it was called, but it had Peter Dinklage and it was horrible. It was horrible, yeah. Peter Dinklage? Oh, I think I know what you guys are talking about. Was he- The Western thing. The what? Oh my God. Oh, nevermind, it was a Western. Oh, okay, no. Yeah, I think it's The Thinklest or Thickest? The Thickets. Thicket. Oh. You talked about that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Horrible film. That horrible film. Of that horrible movie. It's great to have a friend actually on the pod, you know. It's very different than what we've had. And I think... I think you're our first Black woman on the pod. Oh, out here. Representation. That's what it's about. Yeah. We're a big one out here. Now, how do you feel? How do you feel being on the TCA? I'm excited. A long time waiting, you know. When you told me about the pods, the first time we interacted, we talked about Didi and we told him about the pod, I was like, yes, 100% going to be a listener. And then when you brought up the fact of guests, I was like, this is so exciting. I was like, this is some moment right here. So excited to be here. Love that. For For the record, she's not talking about Diddy as in the rapper, because that was her first thought. You're talking about the movie, Didi, D-I-D-I. We do not endorse that person on here, okay? You wanna know our true feelings about Didi, I believe that is episode 12. So go back, go listen, great movie to watch as well,'cause I think it's on digital as well. Yeah, it's on Prime. Yeah, it's on Prime. All the good stuff is on Prime, to be honest with you. But we got another episode about something amazing. Drum roll, drum roll. Steve, what are we doing? Today we're doing the Sean Baker, you heard it here first, your next Best Picture classic, instant classic, ANORA. It's the independent from Neon, from Sean Baker. It's a film set in New York City about, well, it's sort of an American Russian film, but it's not like it's an American film, but uses the Russian language heavily. Set in New York City about a sex worker slash exotic dancer. I believe that's what they're called these days. In one of the super fancy nightclubs in New York, who has ohh runs into the son of a Russian oligarch and you know, sequence of fortunate/unfortunate events. And you know me, I love a good immigrant story. So this becomes, quickly becomes an immigrant story where even like an immigrant arranged marriage, not arranged, but like a green card marriage happens and it just unravels and unravels. And we're going to talk about some of that. I'll tell you, my brother's I-20 was expiring and he had problems. Yeah, she came in. And yeah, we follow the film as it unravels and that's pretty much what it's about. There's no, there's no, I don't think there's like a overt, obviously like the subtext and context are resolution, but I don't think there's an overt like, which is typical with Sean Baker's films, you know, there's no goal that the film is going to ultimately, it's really just, things happening and we're watching it happen and unravel until it just like crescendos in some super somber climax, I guess. Okay, so I do have a couple of things. I think one, yeah, I love those movies. I love that you said it's like probably the next best picture, because I generally think out of the last couple of best picture films, it's--It's the one that least felt like they wanted it to win an award. Yes, Oscar Bait. It's not Oscar Bait. Oscar Bait film that I've watched in a minute. Umm Yeah, this is this is great. It's a classic Cinderella story, but, and it's like, yeah, he he is a son of an oligarch that is essentially a prince. So yeah, it's a great fucking film. I feel like the biggest praise I can give right now is that I would rewatch it. Yes, bro. But would you rewatch it so soon? That's my question. Absolutely. Okay. I want to go see it. I want to go see it again. Like, it was so funny. It was. I walked in not expecting it to be funny. At all, yeah. Yeah, I didn't know what it was, but I think someone said, that I know you hate Sean Baker, but someone said, Sean Baker is the sex workers what Scorsese is to gangsters. That is pretty funny. The PR and humanization, I love it. The content, it's just consistently good movies. And like, yeah, there's been movies about sex workers for a time, but like, have we all been as good as these have been? Yeah, Yeah this is. Because you brought that up, let's talk Sean Baker for a second. So I think I've seen Red Rocket and I've seen The Florida Project. um I felt like I did not like those films and hence why I'm a Sean Baker hater, but not because I thought it wasn't good filmmaking. I think it's somewhat excellent filmmaking. I just feel like he's morally, I've always found his moral compass broken from his films. Like I've always felt this man has to have the worst ethics as a person. And he's showing that, he's translating that on screen. Take for example, Red Rocket, which is about like the porn star guy who in like South Texas or something, where he's living in some woman's drug dealer's house and he's helping to push drugs and whatever, and eventually like meets this girl who's, clearly presents, like she looks very underage, but she's not, she's legal. And he makes a point to ask her ID or ask for some identification to just prove that she's legal in there, even though she looks like a child. And if you look up the cast for Red Rocket bro, most of them, that's their only film. So it just feels like Sean Baker walks around Texas, finds a bunch of random people and puts them on screen, gives them a platform to just... fucking act out a twisted way of subverting the age of consent. Like that's what Red Rocker felt like to me. And then Florida Project, which was even better filmmaking, like I was put in a trance for that film. I think I sat down to, you know, when you put something on just to eat and then you're watching it and then after you're done eating, you kind of like pause it and do what you were doing again. I sat down and I sat through the entire film, 'cause I was like, I'm somewhat of a trance,'cause it was really, really good filmmaking. But I don't know, man. Those kids, 'cause the girl and her friend that live next door and they were having to watch their moms who were also exotic dancers, just do drugs in front of them and, you know, fuck people while they hid in the bathroom. I'm just like, I don't think this this is good. Like this feels morally bankrupt, bro. Like the kids are right there and, you know, we're showing them from all angles while they're taking a shower and all of that and I'm just like, I don't know, man, it feels like we shouldn't, some people that that should belong on some public registry, we shouldn't be giving them a platform to make fucking like movies that are these good, you know what I mean? So I've always been a Sean Baker hater. I think it fit though, it fit with this movie, like him picking random people and just putting them in the movie, like the funniness of this movie was not like on intention, you know, they just were like acting how they would. in real life, and it just turned out to be like hysterical and funny to a point where it's like, you can't you can't be serious. You can't be doing this and saying these things and think it's okay. Yeah I was I was crying while I'm watching this morning. It was a really, really good movie. I was like, oh. It was genuinely insane. I think one of my favorite scenes is a baptism scene. With Toros. That quiet "no!" that's so funny. Yeah. I think it's, I really like Sean Baker's films and I would say it is, I kind of, okay, so Steve, I pose a question to you about Sean Baker's movies and in regards to another set of directors that you like. So why do you disapprove so heavily of Sean Baker's film style, filmmaking and storytelling, whereas you like praise the Safdie brothers with their insane level of like moral bankruptness. I don't think the Safdies are morally bankrupt. I think the Safdies have a knack for character study, that's one. And I think they're showing, like they don't, it doesn't feel like they're crossing -h ow do I put this? Like playing around with sexual abuse or sexual, like, it doesn't look like they're toying with anything that could be misconstrued as sexual abuse, right? Here in all his films, in all his films, you can make a case for someone having sex that is either very transactional, which they wouldn't be doing if they had their own way. Like, I'm not saying like I disapprove of sex work or think sex work is like sex abuse or anything, but it just feels like, i n ANORA, for example, one of the, when one of the dancers is given a lap dance, she's like, okay, put your hand like under, she makes him sit on his arm so he doesn't like touch her inappropriately because that has happened to her in the past. Obviously that's not spoken. That's what said overtly, but that has happened. Or she's telling someone that he has rape eyes because obviously she has dealt with enough creeps to know what rape eyes look like in fucking what do you call it? Red Rocket, the porn star guy, he meets this girl who's like, and he's trying to like help her out or whatever. Obviously she wants to have sex, but it's just very much given, she wouldn't be doing this if she had her own way. Like, I don't know how to explain it, but the Safdies don't do that. I think it's just more character study and and looking into human relationships. I, I would disagree. I would say, okay, so I see a bit more of what your problem is, your issue is. The nuances around the sexual relationships. Yes. I just want to put like a little bit of like a a notice to the side for that sitting on your hands thing. Okay, so I feel like that is a very, that's a pretty common strip club. Yeah. That. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait You both be entertaining? Nobody said that. Nobody said that. That's super cool. It just, it's, I don't know, you know, just based on, I guess like logic. It seems like, you know, it's a common strength of practice. You know, it's like when you go to the, when you go up to like certain malls or certain stores and they're like, "Hey, we don't want your backpacks." Okay. Okay. Check your backpack. Let's equate those two. Sure, go ahead. I mean, let's not do that, but I think on the other side, the Safdie brothers, like they have a, m an, the vices, the level of the vices that they impose, plus like some of the moral questions that they almost justify the level of violence, the level of sometimes I you could even make a make a case that they might be a little ableist because someone disabled is always getting some like some short end of the stick in the south. Yeah. OK. It's kind of kind of wild. So I'm not out here saying I'm already bankrupt. I'm just saying it is a story, it is a film. And I understand your problem with like the, I guess like the nuances with like the age and the way they look and the depiction of like the sexual situations. But I feel like these are very real stories and very real situations that are being depicted that many people, not even some, not a few, but many people are in this, situation, I feel, and are exposed to these things. I think also, I don't remember, I can't quote studies right now bar for bar, but there were a couple of studies in grad school that we talked about that, and this was like a shock to me. So I used to think the average age for a person's, well, an American's first sexual experience was around 15. But that is in suburban areas. In urban areas, it's around 12. So that's your first sexual experience. Yeah. And now if we talk about the age that you are exposed to something sexual, we can probably go back by like a couple of years. So I don't think it's necessarily like taboo some of this going on. I just think it's depicting a reality that is not as familiar to you and you don't. I don't want to say approve, but you're just like, Hey, we need to safeguard people a little bit. You know you know that GIF of Jay-Z listening to someone play music and he's like, and then he looks up and he's like, That's how I feel. It's not like I disapprove necessarily. I'm going to enjoy it because like I've said, like I enjoy his filmmaking style, but... I guess somewhat, you're right, I don't necessarily approve it. I just feel like he would be on the registry. If it was a normal person, he would be on the sex registry. That's how I feel. And so I struggle to fully appreciate the stories. Yeah, I definitely understand what you're saying, 'cause I think for me too, I just don't enjoy seeing it, but somebody has to tell the story. Yeah. So like, you know, it's unfamiliar and like kind of uncanny for us to see it just because it's not in our normal life and we don't experience these things. But to somebody to watch in Anora and laugh about like the situation that happened is like, it's enjoyable, you know? It's not just, you're not watching a movie that's like traumatic about like an escort or a prostitute or a sex worker, it's more so a funny story. um that turned into a sad story, that turned into, so many emotions can be evoked by this film. So I think it's good that somebody's telling this story. Yeah. Did it feel uncomfortable for me to watch the first? I was sitting there like, um, what's going on? I was like, okay. But like, I understood it. When I was done with the movie, I was like, it actually makes sense. You know, I'm glad I watched it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let's just wait. I just want to say something about that part where you said it actually makes sense. I was following up to the very fucking end, like that last like five minutes of the film. I was like, what are you doing here? What's going on? We'll talk about that one because- Igor was like a great person throughout. You rebuffed, rebuffed, rebuffed, cool. All of a sudden you want to, I'm like, okay. But that's the... We'll talk about this one. But I feel like I'm the reverse, like I was on the edge of my scene, like what is going to happen? And then when we get to that scene, I'm like, perfect. It only became a five for me at that scene, like in that scene right there. Yeah, I want to wrap up the Sean Baker part. On the flip side, so I said Red Rocket, Florida Project, struggled with them. But on the flip side, I think he's mature, like he's already grown, like he's a mature filmmaker, but I think he hits a new level of maturity with ANORA where he's not just making films centered around sex or sex work, you know, or having that be, obviously like he's still going to show his lead hero in being fucked Like that's not going to change for him, but he's giving her depth, like he's giving her more in ANORA like, I don't know if that's credit to Mikey Madison or I don't know if that's credit to Sean's growth. I like to think of Sean's growth, but in ANORA, he does this thing that he doesn't really do where he's like toeing the line. You know He's flirting with the idea of this being a comedy, but it's not a comedy. He's flirting with the line occasionally being a romance story, but it's not fully a romance story. There's some scenes that he's flirting the line of it being a thriller, like there's some very thrilling scenes, but it's not a thriller, obviously, like the scenes where for a second, you could think he wants this to be a romance story. Obviously, it's not a fucking romance story, but there's scenes where it could, you know? So I think he does this thing where he's making the full film and he's like toeing the line. He's edging you almost, like getting you there. You laugh in this scene and then in a second, you're not laughing anymore because stuff is going down. And then you're like, the girl beside me was crying for one of the scenes. And I'm like, yeah. That's weird. It was towards the end. It was the scene where, the scene where he calls her, where Ivan calls her an escort. He was like, when he's like, oh, I fucking married an escort. So big deal. Like, why are you? Yeah, like the camera goes, zooms in on, like after he says it, I don't know if it's a split diopter whatever, but they go to her face and you can see like, that's where realization sets in that. No, because yeah, she had, I feel like for a good amount of the film, like, well, well she's operating on, like, an interesting level of delusion. Because... That's not for you. I thought so. No, no, no. Like, because I don't think it's like any, I don't think it's like a harmful delusion. I don't think anyone did anything to her. I think it's just her and her too. And again, it's a Cinderella story. She wanted her prince, or more importantly, I feel like she just wanted to be saved from her life, but... You disagree? Yeah. I was gonna say before we get into your point is two things. Well, Toros has been in every Sean Baker movie. Yeah. Toros? Toros. The, t he bad, like the villain, essentially. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I won't call him a villain, but he's been in every Sean Baker movie and love him. love that. I could like, I was like, oh, because we talked about before ANORA, me and you talked about Florida Project and I went to go rewatch that. I didn't go rewatch Rocket, but like, but I was like, oh, I see you. And I really like how I think majority of like the lead actors were actually Russian. Yeah, I like that too. I like that a lot actually. Russian actors, especially like Igor is an established Russian actor and yeah, so that was very interesting. And with what you said about like Sean Baker walking around Texas, picking people up, or just like two people, I'm just like, please, he needs to show me where he where he picked up Mikey Madison. I want to hear Misgana's point before we get into Mikey, though. I want to hear what you were gonna say. I have some things to say about Mikey. I have nothing to say about Mikey, actually. Wild. Well, opinions or opinions? I, I think we'll we'll save it for another day. Okay. I want to see what you're going to say about Toros. Yeah, you are going to disagree with him. I think it's not delusion or that she had or she experienced, and I think it's not her wanting to be saved from the lives that she had, because we don't really see her like like feeling like she's, bad, like she's feeling bad about her lifestyle. Like prior to meeting him, she was just living it and she just happened to run into him. I don't think it's, she just likes money. I think that's what it is. And she saw that he had money and she thought that he liked her and she was like, Okay, cool. Like, let's let's see how it goes. And then that's when like you see her in Vegas with him and he keeps saying, you know, let's let's get married. And she like stopped playing with me. She kept saying it over and over again because she like she was not led by delusion because if she was, she'd be like, yeah, of course, let's get married. But he was he was filled with delusion and he didn't like think for a minute about like his parents and the consequences of the relationship that he had with her based on how much he liked her. Um which led to how the story ended. But I don't think she was really delusional. I think she she started believing him after the marriage and she kind of like trust in him and he kind of failed her. And you see that like on many levels, him just leaving her and running away and then the playing situation and then him ignoring her. It gets so so many levels of disrespect and just distrust that she had to face. And then you see the ending and it's like really emotional because of what she had to go through. So yeah, I really don't think it's delusion or her. I think I think i agree with you guys. Let me just before you, I think I agree with both of you in the in the sense that, like I don't think she was looking for a knight in shining armor. I don't think she was looking to be saved because like you said, we don't really get to see much of that. But even the little bit that we do get to see, it doesn't look like she's helpless or she's waiting for someone to come save her. It looks like she's just living life and then she likes money. So she sees the opportunity to make more money. So she jumps at it. But I do think she was a little bit delusional. Maybe not at first, maybe not at first, but like when the whole fight thing is going down, um she, the delusional aspect comes from her thinking what they have is somewhat real, or there's some realness to what they have, right? And, you know, thinking "when I find him, I want to talk to him first." I want to get, because she thinks that she's going to be able to get through to him. And, you know, when they go to the courthouse, she's like trying to talk to him. She's like, " yo, I can get through to him." Like tell them it's a lie. "Tell them like we're actually not going through with this," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the divorce, like it would have gotten a note there if they had married in New York. Like the only reason why the annulment didn't work was because it was in Vegas and even when they're going to. Vegas, you know, she's still hoping that he's going to, you know, put some sense. You say it's trust, like she trusted him, which I guess, sure, fine. Like, I'm not going to say that anyone that's trusting is delusional. But in this case, it was delusion because the reason why he wanted to get married was for the green card. The reason why he liked her and was attracted to her was for like completely sexual, transactional reasons. Her, like the idea of trust coming in, is a delusion and see we see that in real time when he calls her an escort and that's when clarity sets in and she realizes that this was never more than this, you know what I mean? So that's the aspect. I don't think before that she was delusional. She knew what she was getting into, but post the marriage, you know, trust, delusion. Post the wedding, yeah, a little bit. It's definitely giving pick me, love me, choose me, which, you know. And I think that is kind of like where the core of my arguments about it being delusion comes into play. Like I agree with some parts of what Steve said. I definitely don't agree with... I think a lot of it was real. I feel like the intimacy shared was real and kind of just feeling special and prioritized is a very great feeling. She enjoyed it. From what we could see, they're not exactly bawling at home. She couldn't pick up milk, like... Like like for someone to wake you up out of sleep. No. About milk. She forgot to pick up milk. She didn't afford it or she didn't want to pick it up. Also, Also there were multiple, like a couple of times, she would literally go somewhere or they'd make a comment, she'd make a comment about where someone is living, even Igor. So I'm just saying, I do not think she was particularly in a great situation, but I'm not saying at the same time that she was out here searching for someone to save her. I think simply like Cinderella, the opportunity presented itself. She knows it. Yeah, she's like, All right, let me-- Let me scratch it. And I completely agree with you, Misgana. She's like, "Hey, don't play with me, don't play with me," when he's proposing the marriage, because this is what I'm saying, of course. But it really, like you can see the logic is pushing off, you know, there's a fight, first of all, that whole Vegas impromptu trip with drugs and people you don't know, very interesting decision. I mean, yeah. But not there for her decision-making. We're just seeing that the logic is eroding very slowly. Then she gets married to him and they come and they are consistently telling her, "hey, this can't happen." Here are the reasons why. Toros, I think almost everyone tries to reason with her, with before things get, honestly, they didn't even get, she became violent. They didn't get violent, which is like another interesting twist to things. And could also be seen as like a physical response to like someone trying to like break the delusion. Did she get violent or did they stop her? They said, "You can't leave." My boy's neck and like broke my other boy's nose. umm This is where I disag- ree. She was detained, but I wanted-- She was gonna leave and they tie her down. She's like, well, well she hadn't hurt my boy before that happened. She like literally started breaking things and like throwing like the lamp and the plates at him. But I'm gonna I'm gonna get back, we'll get back to that. So I think very much so, what happened was also that, like in the next couple of scenes, like over the next two days, literally two days, they and multiple people are telling her, hey, well, yeah, yeah most people are telling her like, "this can't happen for these people." And she's like, "no, this is my husband. I'm staying with him. I'm choosing him." He did not choose you. He ran away. Yes, the betrayal of trust was there, but I don't believe, well, to us, the audience, and clearly what was portrayed by Igor, and also we all know he's immature. We all know... You mean Ivan? Yeah, Ivan, my bad, Ivan. Yeah. There was a lot, there's very little to like about Ivan, and I feel like they they portrayed this pretty well outside of his money. Yeah. Yeah, even his friends did not know where he was. Like that shows the test of their friendship, the level of friendship that they had, and I think one of my favorite conversations about like, the whole thing was, I think Toros was like, "how long have you known him?" Like six months? Three months? I don't remember how long they said, but it was like, in my head, I was like, wait, yeah, that's actually true. Because that's also like, immigration. Like, let's say the marriage took place. It's immediately red flag. Yeah. Yeah I mean, he's 18, and she's 23. Yeah. Does she know better than him? Yeah. Uh, should she have been a little bit-- w ho's 18 and who's 23?Yeah, he was like 18 or 19. She's 23. Anora's 23 and Ivan is 18. No, it's like-- yeah, he's 18. It's like 20, 21 and 25. No, he guessed that she was 23 and she was like-- no, he guessed that she was 25. Yeah, yeah he guessed that she was 25. And then she turned and she, he was like I'm 18. Ohh Yes, she's 23. Okay, so Vanya is 21. Yeah, he's 21 and she's 25. No, it's 21 and she's 23. Okay, so she has, he was-- which makes sense because if you think about it, like a lot of international students come to America at 17. And if he's leaving, I guess, like OPT I-20 he's done. And he's going back home to work for his dad. He doesn't need to do OPT here. So he's 23. I hate that we can relate to the aspect of this film, man, but sorry, carry on. Yeah, we can do the math. I hate that we can do that, bro. It's kind of funny, but yeah, I do think there was like quite a bit of delusion. Shout out to her, she was giving the short end of the stick and did not, ohh I'm not gonna lie, the amount of money he spent. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. Ohh I'm just saying if she clocked in, I was like, this is going to be an experience. She couldn't even kept that coat at the end. Oh my God. Coat at the end. Women are more than money. She actually had a scarf. She just threw it. And I was like, girl, what's going on? The house, she could have filled up her suitcase with more- I was, I was, okay, there was, I don't know if this would be like a spoiler. It's not very spoiler. I wish that when she returned at the house, that she broke everything. Everything and Igor just lets her, and then she just walks away. That would have been, it would have been like a good ending in my head. I was like, wow, that was different. I feel like that would have been an A24 ending, not not a Neon ending, you know? Yeah, not a N eon ending. Since we're talking of that scene, how did we feel about the ending of the film. So like I said, when I gave my brief intro, um I think Sean Baker has a knack for taking a bunch of things happening and stories unraveling or whatever, and then concluding with the very sobering end slash climax, slash conclusion, whatever. And I don't think he's ever done it as well as this, but okay, so we're going through the film and we're seeing the relationship between her and Igor. I think at times, like at very, very weird times, it comes up as, oh, this man is, has a very personal vibe towards her. You know, like this character genuinely seems like he's a gangster because he's good at being a gangster, but he doesn't, like, it seems like his moral compass is in check and all of that. Like when she's cold, he's giving her, what, the scarf, and he's offering it to her and she's refusing, or when the brothers broke his nose or whatever, he's like, he went back home to get the pain meds and then he eventually gave her to her and all of that. Like it just seems like a level-headed guy that is just doing this because he doesn't have other options. I don't think we ever get -- I could be wrong, but I don't think we ever get any sexual vibe or sexual read from him, you know, leading up to that. But I think his character arc starts to turn when he just gets up as you're about to head off the private jet, and he's like, "apologize to her." I think Ivan should apologize to her. I felt like that struck me. I'm like, okay, what is Sean trying to do with this character here? Because why is he, you know, talking to the mom like this? And even his brother and Toros were like, "what are you doing right now?" Like, shut up. I think Toros told him to shut up. Yeah. And the dads- Toros, professional- Toros, bro. This was a long day for him. Yeah, bro. And like the the dad, like Ivan's dad starts laughing hysterically and the mom and Igor kind of going back and forth that with each statement, he's even laughing more hysterically. So I wasn't too sure what Sean was trying to do. No, it wasn't, it wasn't Igor's statement that he was laughing. It was Anora calling him a bitch. It was, yeah, Anora calling. What did she say? She said like- I think she called him a bitch but she called him pathetic. Yeah. No, she called him like a pathetic bitch or something like that. Yeah, she was like, yeah, I wouldn't be married to a pathetic da-da-da-da. I was like, yo, and then his dad started laughing. And then hysteric. Are you sure? It wasn't- Yeah, it wasn't a mum? It wasn't no. Oh, was that in the lawyers, like after the marriage thing had been? Yeah. Okay. And she threw, that was where she threw the coat at her. And that was when he climaxed in his laugh, okay, okay, okay. But that's when, that's also when Igor told him to apologize before all that, before. Yeah, I think in that moment, it didn't feel romantic. At least in my head, it didn't feel, it felt like he was a big brother to her. She was just being like there, seeing the situation that she's been through from the start, from meeting her, sitting at the couch and being distended, just looking at her. not saying a word leading up to the moment where he says to her like, like you should apologize. I think it felt like a big brother, like a like friend that like wants to like hug you or like keep you safe. Um And you see that by him also in the car giving her the thing that he gave her. I don't want to spoil it. And that was really kind. Yeah So I think it was weird how she kind of-- the ending happened because I was like-- I think she was trying to hide what she was feeling and hide and like over-- fine, I'm fine. I'm fine. Yeah like thank you, but I will do it like in the sexual manner. And it was interesting. But I think it was a cry for like, this happened to me. And it was a good ending because you got this idea. It was a great ending. That's how I felt. I think I'm going to build up on what you've said. So I was going to talk about the scene the night before, before we get to the final scene, like the night before, did you guys think, or did you get a read that she wanted something sexual to happen, or he wanted something sexual to happen, or they were just- I think for me- taking a break from the rest of, from the chaotic day that they had had. I think for me, at no point, because I felt like Igor was just a very good goon. You know what I mean? He came here to do his job. Yeah. And like, he was a little bit kind, like he tried to like reduce the violence that was done, because we can see that he can dish out violence. Yeah. But he's like very restrained and he never, yeah, never any unnecessary violence. And I really enjoyed a lot of, like Misgana said, a lot of the Big Brother moments. I think they happened even prior to that, like when they were walking in the cold that night and she's like- cold. He just had a scarf. Yeah. He initially used to tie her up. But like multiple times, like, "hey, are you okay?" And yeah, she's like, "n o, why would I tell you?" Like, and he was like, apologize for the violence when they first get in the car. And he calls it the, she calls him the F word. Yeah. So she called him the F word at dinner. Yeah. Yeah A couple of times. Yeah. And then I think I didn't think of anything sexual because she called him the F word. I'm like, girl, you don't expect this man to sleep with you now, right? Exactly, exactly And I think- I'm like, you just say like, like you're gonna insult a man, but like that's too far, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's a little, that's a little one. I think the reason I asked that question is because for a second, when she stands up to go up the stairs, she's like, you have rape eyes. I feel like you would have raped me if no one was there or whatever. And he's like, I don't. And then she's like, why wouldn't you? Like who asks, if someone says they wouldn't rape you, who follows up with, why wouldn't you rape me? Like, I don't, I'm not saying that she wanted to have sex. I don't think she wanted to have sex with him 'cause she hadn't looked at him in that light either. You think it was bait for what? I don't know, but it was bait. Maybe she wanted to see if he had the like-- I don't know what it is, the violence or I think if I would I would kind of infer that if you're working in the industry of prostitution and like escorting and sex work, you know, men or like any other gender or sexual orientation kind of want to be superior of you. So when you're baiting them, like they can just punch over you and just be like, what'd you say? I think she just wanted to see if the anger could come out of him or like if he would do anything about it. Okay. But yeah. I think very much so. I think, yeah, I don't know why. I wouldn't call it bait initially, but I feel like that's a good way to like- put it. Like put it together. Yeah, in that situation, like why is there, I don't think it's like she's confused about the amount of kindness he's showing, but I think it's kind of a way for her to fight back in a situation that she's not really like, you know, like fuck you. You know, a nd it's a bit of at the same time, because the amount of times like she also used the F word, and like at one point she kind of used that, she uses that to justify him not wanting to rape her. Yeah, exactly. Yes, that's what she says, yeah. I think it's also like a bit of banter. Even down to the rape eye's comments, I think it's like crazy banter sha. Crazy banter, yeah. It is, but like at the same time, I think it's just like banter. I think it's just like, well, what else is gonna happen here? Right, right. So I think it was really, really good. And this is kind of, that moment, plus like the cigarette thing that he did, all very like big points of intimacy for them, so it then points to, "Hey, we've cut off romantic intimacy." We've very much cemented friendship and banter as like our points. And we're probably not gonna see each other anymore. So that's why I was like, "Hey, fuck is going on." Yeah. So the final scene. I keep saying that the film did not hit for me until then was because I felt like the entire runtime, she had been on go, like on go mode, either like with dancing or with having sex or with fighting or looking for this man or trying to get through to this man or, you know, she was basically going through the five stages of grief even before she had anything to grieve. Like, but I think in that moment, you know, she's obviously very, very shocked. And first of all, we pull up to the house, she's sitting in the house, like realization that you know this fairy tale, this whirlwind of romance has come to an end. And she looks out the window, it's like snowing or whatever, looks back at the house, looks back in. He helps her with the stuff and all of that, takes it up. She's still looking, not getting out the car yet, because this is it. Soon as she walks out the car, it's done. Finito. He gets back in, gives it the ring, blah, blah, blah. I think Misgana may have alluded to this earlier on, but, or maybe it was you, but the sex was my initial, like understanding of it is when she's at work and someone gives her money, she's going to respond with sex dance or whatever. And they have been having, you know, back and forth banter, like you just called it. It's not like he paid for sex with the ring. I'm not, that's not what I'm saying, but it's almost. Like, I don't want to call it a reflex, but it's almost like personal to her, intuition to her. That's what you're saying. Like she reciprocated like- Yes. Like this is a really nice thing that this man has done. The only way that she's like- That she knows, that she's come to know. Yeah. That's a way that's- The way she knows is. Is to give that, right? But then, and I'm like, "Okay, I guess" like there's no growth for the character Sean Baker has fucked up again, like he's just shown us a story. So that's what I'm saying, like. Like I felt like another Sean Baker film where he's just seeing women as nothing more than transactional, you know, that. But then I guess he's, Igor is obviously very taken aback. Igor is the funniest character in this film. He's the funniest guy. The funniest guy in this film. I would say he's not the funniest, but he is funny. He's hilarious, man. But anyway, like she's like, all of that's happening. And I guess he like cups her face and he, tries to kiss her and then you see her struggling back, like pulling back. And he's like trying to pull her face closer and she's pulling back and then she starts hitting him and then she starts crying. And I think that the reason why like that, in that moment, she felt seen and she felt like t he sex thing was more so what she wanted or more so her way of thanking him. Not that he wanted that, but he really just wanted some form of intimacy that didn't involve whatever that was. That's why he was pulling her in. And obviously it was a release as well, given the terrible week that she's just had. And so she needed a cry like any fucking person would in that situation. And she's had to put on the front or a face, whatever. And so that was much needed release, but I also think it's because she felt seen and she felt. you know, like a human being in that moment, which I don't think Sean Baker has ever made any of these characters feel like. So that's why I personally... It just worked. Like it just worked. I think it would have not worked in other situations, but this time it just worked. And it made sense, you know, as an audience, you can put two and two together and have like a quote-unquote moment of summarizing what happened and-- and for her, like she might have felt this, she might have felt that. Um, so I think it just worked. A lot of this film is like pieces just came together by luck. And to be honest, I don't think a lot of the things that happened to be funny or like romantic and stuff were planned. It just happened to be funny. I feel like, you know, you can't put like an American person into a film and force them to do a Russian accent. And see some things that they would say, like, you know, like two shit twos, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's very much like it just happened to work. And yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, I think it was definitely amazing. I really love how, like, just most of it was unexpected. I expected, well, yeah, yeah most of it was unexpected. I I did expect a film about a sex worker, but I just, I don't know. It was just that. And it would it was great. It was a really good movie. So what would you guys rate it? I mean, Steve said five. So, you know, that's already known. Yeah, 10 out of 10 for me. I'm sorry. 10 out of 10. We're doing it out of 10. Okay, I think for me. For a 10 chat. Nine point five. I'll say ten. I'll say ten. Surprisingly enough, I would give it a nine. Okay. A nine?! I care to elaborate? Because, like, the ending still doesn't make sense to me. But that's okay. No, no, no, I get it. I get it. I like I was like, you know, something else happened. I'm like, it was great. I was raving about it. I would go watch it again. I, is it the best movie I've watched this year? Definitely in my top four. Yeah. But I would just say, like, I was a little like aghast, you get me? Like, I I like the cry. I like what happened with the ring. Shout out to her. Shout out to Igor. Mandem is over here, like, how does this equals clapping cheeks? It's cathartic and all of that, it's like... That is a top one funny statement you made on this podcast. And I think... My man is confused, he's as confused as fucking me. I think... She's now like, I'm not going to lie. If I try to pull a girl in for a kiss, I'm going to think I'm the ugliest person out here, bro. I feel like the whole thing on me. The whole point of storytelling is sometimes you just have to be okay because I feel like, yeah, you have something in your mind. No, I get what you're trying to tell me. We can accept your choices, but still disagree. I feel like we need to have this conversation. We're probably going to have another conversation. Yeah. Yeah. This has been a great episode. So overall, so on average, let's say like... Yeah, I think on average I put it down like, but just by like a tiny bit, it's like 9.7 or something like that. Like it's you could do 9-5, .5 increments so 9.5. That's fine. It's crazy because you guys did. Didn't you guys give? What was the movie? The last one you guys reviewed? WE LIVE IN TIME. No, we gave it an 8. Yeah, I was like, yeah, I think DIDI was maybe 9.5, maybe or nine, but it was a ten. I don't know what you're talking about. It was a ten. Yeah, I think we did like 9.5 or 9, but WE LIVE IN TIME was an 8, but this is this. This I think is a 10, but I can go with 9.5. Yeah, it's a yeah, I think it's an I think the math is actually a 9.7. I'm so sorry. OK, we got the stats guy. Well, yeah. All right. This has been a great episode of The Cinephiles Aisle. I'm really excited to have Misgana on. Yeah. Finalize that she's going to be on for a couple more episodes. So you guys get ready. I hope I'm on Gladiator. I'm going to just put that out there. Gladiator. We should be good. We should be good. You already have your tickets, right? Yeah, I already have my tickets. I'm excited. We're covering that. We're covering that in TCA. Keep an eye out. All right. Okay. All right, guys. Until next time. Yeah. Until next time. Safe. Bye.