Episode 24: "MICKEY 17 - Death, Dupes & Disposable Heroes" feat. Jerry

Ofili and Steve are joined by Jerry, who’s making his TCA debut, to talk through Mickey 17, Bong Joon-ho’s 2025 sci-fi release. “Dying is just another part of the job” sets the tone for a conversation on identity, memory, and the systems that turn people into tools. They dive into the film’s cold color palette and sound design, discuss the religious and philosophical threads running underneath, and unpack what it means to be disposable in a world that keeps bringing you back. Let us know what you think via any of the links below!

Transcript

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of The Cinephile's Aisle.

Today we have Jerry.

How are we doing?

Hey, I'm okay.

I think today's been an okay, very slow day, but like very, I don't know.

It's good to be in front of a new audience, but I feel like I should have presented myself like more hyper.

Today they're like, who's this guy?

Who's this guy?

Like we want to know more, but now they're like, why is Mickey 17 or why is Mickey 18 here?

Just like, Nice to have you on the pod, Jerry.

It's always great when we have a guest.

Yeah.

When we started the last episode, I was telling Ofili that I feel like we have guests so frequently, that when it's just two of us, it feels a little bit like Jerry Bong.

No, it feels so empty, man.

Yeah.

So it's nice that we have a guest for the follow up to that.

Yeah.

Okay.

So yeah, everyone, let's dive into what you guys watched recently.

So it's weird.

My PlayStation hasn't been working in a minute, right?

And I'm signing to everything on my PlayStation except Netflix.

Netflix is signed into my TV.

So all I can watch is stuff that's on my TV.

So I've just been going on Netflix, bro.

Anything, any nonsense after Netflix, I've seen.

Last night, I started this TV show called Black Dove.

It's like a British spy thriller with Keira Knightley and Ben Wishoff.

And it hooked me so bad.

Netflix has, they're so good at like, we all know Netflix isn't good, right?

We know they're bad.

But they're so good at giving you slup that sucks you in.

You know what I mean?

No, no, no, they are.

They are really, really good at, like that's your bread and butter.

And it makes sense when you think about it because they're going for quantity over quality, right?

They don't care if they're winning the Emmys or Golden Globes.

You just want people watching the streaming numbers going up.

So I'm like, man, you guys got the machine, bro.

It's the content machine.

But yeah, I watched the black.

I don't remember what it is.

Black dogs?

Black dogs.

Something.

I know what you're talking about because I watched it when it came out, because it came out at the same time with the agency.

And there was this like, I think, black bag also came out at the same time.

There was like a lot of British spy content that was out at the same time.

And I was like, this is my bag.

I will watch.

I will watch.

I will be there.

What about Jerry?

I watched that.

Oh, and then I saw this movie called Don't Move.

I only watched because I thought like, there's been a lot of don'ts.

Like, don't worry, darling.

Don't be...

Don't look up.

Yeah, don't look up.

So I'm like, okay, let's see what the song is about.

It's pretty shit though.

But yeah.

Is that the one where like, I think in the teaser, there's someone in a field and they can't move.

And it's supposed to be like the thriller.

Yeah, I saw it on Netflix.

I was like, I think I want to watch this.

But every time I look, I'm like, I want to watch something else more.

Yeah, you made the right choice.

Yes.

Fair enough.

Fair enough.

No.

What have I been watching?

I think this past week, I binge the first season of P-Valley because I was bored and Netflix just added both seasons.

I just thought, let me just get rid of the show.

Let me see what it's like.

And I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked it.

I've also in recent weeks, I've been watching Common Side Effects on Channel 4 here in the UK, but I guess I don't know if you guys have been amazing.

Really good show if you like animated shows and you just want to see how Big Pharma ruins the world and want to see a good story about that or whatever.

Then go with Common Side Effects, it's amazing.

And last night, I watched and that's the worst possible way I can like introduce.

I would probably give a better, I will give a better, a better preview of what that show is in a second, just because I think people should absolutely watch Common Side Effects.

But last night, I watched No Hard Feelings for the first time because I remember when that one came out, I don't know.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I just...

Sorry, I saw that two X's ago in...

Okay.

I get it.

Different time in your life.

I would just have to add Jennifer Lawrence's iPhone big screen.

It now has a very bad memory attached to it, so we try not to be talking about that.

Yeah.

That was kind of different from what I expected, but cute.

Oh, yeah.

Actually, yesterday, I watched the Super Mario movie, Super Mario Brothers as well.

That was surprisingly fun.

I see why I made a billion dollars.

I get it.

I get it.

I hate that.

I understand what the...

Like, again, I'm watching Studio, or the Studio.

I forgot to mention that.

Yeah, I'm watching the Studio, and it's just like...

You see that whole big thing about, like, you know, the very big known, like, named IPs.

And, like, in Studio, it's about making a movie about Kool-Aid.

And it's lucky to say, because Scorsese comes in, trying to make a movie about, like, Jonestown.

Yeah, the Jonestown Massacre, where it's like, don't drink the Kool-Aid.

And it's meant to be, like, this cinematic, like, beautiful thing, and it's meant to be Scorsese's last movie, whereas the Studio wants to make, like, Super Mario Bros.

You know, of Kool-Aid.

And right now, it's really funny, because Minecraft just came out, and Jesus fucking Christ, it's so many kids in the theaters.

So many fucking kids in the theaters, and I am losing my mind.

I have never seen this many children in one time.

Where are you going?

Because like, I don't know, the late screenings tend to have less, because more of the, less of the music, they're not going to put Minecraft at 10 p.m., 11 p.m.

There's no Minecraft at 10 p.m., 11 p.m., but it's there at 9 p.m.

So it's fucking insane.

It's fucking insane.

But I think apart from that, Common Side Effects was actually a really good watch.

I watched like the first two episodes in the HBO Max.

So I would prop that up.

What else have I watched?

I watched Ricky, no, well, I've watched Mickey 17, re-watched that, but we'll dive into that a little bit later.

I think the most recent thing that I watched that I felt like, hey, this is really good, was Riff Raff.

Bill Murray, Ed Harris, Gabriel Union, Jennifer Coolidge.

So, yeah, I got off like my White Lotus season two binge because I had to watch season two to start season three because I'm like, some things are like tying over it.

Some things are just like a little bit, they're carrying over it.

It's kind of annoying now.

Yes, the White Lotus is meant to be stand alone, like Black Mirror.

So, it is what it is.

And so, I watched Riff Raff, Riff Raff was really good.

Pete Davidson was getting mad as well.

It's pretty funny, good, really good vibes.

And yeah, shout out to that whole cast because that was great.

Also saw a representation I've never seen before.

White man being the father that stepped up.

I haven't seen that before.

Yeah.

Well, it's kind of funny because I've, yeah, I was going to say a big pause because in, I feel like there's UK media that does have that a little bit more.

I want to feel like, yeah, I want to say, it probably feels like a lot of-

let me say a lot.

I feel like I've seen-

it doesn't come to my mind now, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a few TV shows or maybe movies where there is a white step that actually cares about the kid.

I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure I've seen some.

I think the one that immediately comes to mind is The Boys and M.M.'s, like the step dad there, but he's like a stupid-

he's not what we should be.

He's not the guy that stepped up.

He's just fucking there.

There's some face comments in my mind, but if I remember this character in the show, like as we go on, then I'll bring it up and I'll show like I have an example.

Although, are we specifically saying where it's a black family?

Because that changes things, to be fair.

Specifically black child, black mother.

Yeah.

Now that I think about it, the one I'm thinking about might just not be the same.

And it's fine.

One thing I will say though about Somewhere Abroad, I might get killed for this.

But when I was watching it, I realized everything I liked about it is exactly the problem I had with The Last of Us Season 1, the show.

Interesting.

Just out there, just put it out there.

As I was watching, I was like, this is how you make a story that is also still true to the gaming elements that make people actually love the game.

Okay, that's fair.

That is fair.

I definitely agree with that.

I feel like in Super Mario Bros, it was intertwined very well.

Yeah.

Last of Us, I feel like I was there for Pedro Pascal.

That's really...

We were there for the performances, but the actual episode to episode, when you really think about this is supposed to be a zombie apocalypse thing, and there's a lot of stuff from the missions in the game that is just abstracted so we can focus on the story.

It's not as exciting as it should be anymore.

Yeah.

It's not as exciting as it should be anymore.

And I find that very interesting because we're talking about...

And adaptation.

Yeah, we're talking about adaptations and source contents and keeping things tidy and nice and how that might be difficult, which ties into our episode today, talking about Mickey 17.

And I'm thinking, man, this is a great movie for me.

I really enjoyed it.

I had read Mickey 7 and enjoyed that.

But yeah, how do you guys feel about Mickey 17?

I like it.

I think I can start.

I like the...

I kind of knew what I was going into after the trailer.

Because before the trailer, remember we just had that one still, just that one still for like three years.

Yeah, him coming out of the cycler.

Yeah, that was it.

So I thought it was going to be like a futuristic, somewhat dystopian thriller from Bong Joon-ho, which would not be new given Snowpiercer.

But when we saw the trailer, I realized like we're in for, I mean, he had two accents and he was cracking jokes on the trailer.

So I knew like this was a fun.

Yeah.

But I liked it.

I think Bong Joon-ho doesn't waste any time letting you know, like he doesn't waste any time setting the tone for what type of film this is going to be, which I really appreciated.

Like I would have hated if he sets it up as this like super serious or super casual, and then kind of like in Parasite, how it sets up as a drama, but then like the last 30 minutes or some f**k s**t is going down.

We said if like this set up to be this really serious thing and then became casual or jovial at the end.

I like that he wasted no time there.

So like within 15 minutes, everyone's guard was let down and doing laughing and stuff like that.

But I think my favorite part was the casting.

I think each whoever did the casting for this like perfect actually like Tony Collette and what's his name?

The president?

Mark Ruffalo.

Mark Ruffalo.

Yeah, I thought those were perfect like castings, the love interest as well, the little side pieces here and there.

Yeah, I thought everyone played to their strengths and it was a good watch.

I wouldn't call it a great film though, but it was a good watch.

Anas, how do you feel, Jerry?

I liked it, much like I might like it a lot.

I don't know if I'm the only person, at least from the people, from talking to you, Aisha last time and I'm not talking to you, Steve.

You guys all seem to know about Mickey 17 in the book.

I might be the only person who just, I just saw a trailer for this movie this year and I was like, I'm there.

I think this is what I was saying last time.

I saw the cast, I saw it with Bong and the concepts as well.

I just, I was like, yeah, I'm there, I'm taking my money, I'm going, I'm going to work this.

This was an event for me.

So I was excited to watch it.

I liked it.

I think it's interesting you touched on Larry Parr inside, because I was, I was seeing on Netflix yesterday while I was deciding what to watch.

And I was like, it's listed as a comedy.

That's interesting, which it kind of is, but also isn't.

Kind of is.

Yeah.

I agree that I like how he set, how he introduces you to the tone of this movie.

I think there's a lot of things, I think we'll get into it in a sec, but there was a lot of things I liked about this movie.

I can't remember the last beat that I was going to say about my initial thoughts to the movie, so we'll just move on, but I liked the movie, and that's what drew me to it.

It was the casting.

It was that combination of people.

I was already like, I'm already going to be there, just impress me, and I think they did for the most part.

That's fair.

I think, like I've mentioned before, I'm a big space guy, big space guy.

So I read Mickey 7, currently reading a book called Project Hail Mary by Adam Ware.

Really great book.

Another space thing.

So I guess like I wasn't really, when I was reading the book, I was like, okay, this is going platinum.

This is, I thought it was going to be a TV show actually.

I felt like the contents were enough to be a TV show.

But movie, I think Bong Joon-ho did great.

The reason I thought it was going to be a TV show is because it has a lot stacked into it.

There's a lot of themes.

Like Jerry said, we're going to talk about that in a second.

But I guess like talking about the movie specifically right now, the thing that immediately drew me in or how I knew I was going to enjoy this was when Mickey says, hopefully, I'll just get swallowed in one go.

I said, pause.

I said, pause.

We get a little crazy here, bro.

Oh no, Mickey 17.

17 was so funny, bro.

He was so funny.

Every like little line to look at here and there was just perfect, bro.

Yeah.

Having a look.

Yeah.

And I feel like this was a very serious film.

And like I think one of you said earlier, it is delivered in very bleak humor.

And that is like Bong's whole thing.

Bro, knocks it out the park.

That's his, that's Bong Joon-ho's whole thing.

That's why I don't, when he said Parasite, listed as a comedy, I said yes.

Cause that is him.

And Steve, you were talking about his starting off like a drama, then the last 30 minutes goes to shit.

And I really think he should be on retainer for A24.

Yeah.

Neon, not A24, Neon.

Because Neon, they love a film that looks like it's going one way, and it is going to chaos in the last life.

That third act is going to shit.

A24 like sustain anxiety throughout the film.

They don't like having fun.

They like you on the NWC throughout their blockbusters.

You know, yeah, Uncocked Jams.

Yeah, yeah.

Even Good Time with Patterson again.

Good Time anxiety throughout the film.

But yeah, that was fucking amazing to me.

So I guess like diving into the director's style and just like the general feeling of the film.

How do you guys feel about the visual and century world building?

World building as a whole, I think you did a great job.

We're introduced and it's very seamless.

There's very little questions around things.

But I'm just like from a visual and century point of view, what color stood out, how, what sounds, how did you feel about the audio track?

I know Steve is a big soundtrack guy.

You know, if there's a trend, there's no concert, Steve is there.

Okay.

You know what I should, G, you go ahead because I have this in my notes somewhere that I'm going to bring out because I wanted to say something about the soundtrack last time as well.

Like this is probably a good place to put it.

Okay.

I mean, yes, unfortunately, not much for me.

The soundtrack didn't stand out as much to me, unfortunately.

That doesn't mean it was bad or anything.

It just, the film is so visual that that was on my mind more than the music, except for the little chittering.

It's been a while since I watched the film, so I forget what they're called.

The Creeper?

Creepers, yeah.

I like the design for them, both visual.

It gives you this off-worldly, very alien elements, which obviously they're from the set in space, that initially present as scary or they have multiple legs.

And I don't know why it's human nature to just be scared of things with so many limbs and appendages.

But that's why it creates such a contrast when you find out that these people are actually more human than some of the humans that you're living with.

So I thought that was good design.

I think, because we're talking about visually as well, I think the concept of the expendable, which is kind of novel to see on screen, which you're essentially creating the same person multiple times.

But if you look at patents in Mickey 17 and patents in Mickey 18, they look different physically, right?

I think that, I don't know if that's like the effect of VFX or whatever, like I'm not, I need to see the before and after, I need to see the behind the scenes to understand.

Even just looking at them physically kind of reminds me of a certain character that I've glazed one too many times in this show, but wherever you go back to Dune 1 and Dune 2, and people talk about Paul Atreides and, you know, Timothy Chalamet's portrayal of Atreides in season 1, pre-Spice or movie 1, pre-Spice and film 2, post-Spice, you can physically see the person being different, even though it's the same human being acting, you know, it's the same person, it's the same time.

Like it's literally, those films are shot not too many years apart.

He hadn't put on much weight or anything.

So I think that's another thing here that like drew me to Paterson's portrayal of Mickey, like whatever physicality he puts on to portray this 18 as this stronger guy, this more macho person, this work, like you don't need to understand the source theory, you don't need to like take in too much to understand that you're seeing a very big strong guy that's better than the predecessor.

What about you Jerry?

That's so interesting to point out, because we were focused more on the idea, like you find the personalities are different, but it's true if your personality is different than your whole idea, like you're more confident, you probably raise your shoulders a bit more, like it does come out a little bit, you believe it's more than just listening to, like, them say different things, you actually believe that this is a different character.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

So I like that as well.

I'm gonna just go straight back to the question on like the direction, because I think the sound, usually, I love trying to pay attention to how directors use sound, whether it's the absence of it, like there's a scene in Barrier, I love so much in the scene in How to Get a Word Murder, I love so much because of silence, or one of my favorite episodes of Mr.

Robot, more on that later, I don't know, or how they use a myriad of sounds to convey whatever it is that they're trying to get you to feel in that moment.

And I think this film has so many examples of that.

For example, the scene where Marshall is cut in into the mineral and there's a creeper in there, then all of a sudden the creeper comes out and then it just goes into this like funny, like the backing track there is literally called Mayhem.

I know it's just so funny when I was watching the second time I was like, I need to find out the name of this, because I think the word I used was Mayhem.

But then I went to the soundtrack and it was actually called Mayhem.

I was like, this is perfect.

But even capturing, just capturing the emotion, because that was that was a scene where things just it just reminded you that this is a comedy.

This is kind of child, playful, childlike in a way.

The creepers are cute.

Everyone is just there's chaos going on.

Like this ceremony has been ruined or whatever.

And then you can contrast that with the beginning monologue, where Mickey is sort of taking you through his version of hell.

Where he's realized that his life is just so solemn and it's just, he's literally unexpendable.

And like, I think it's that scene where they tell him, take off your clothes, which is just insane.

So they can see like how quickly he like burns up on this.

Something just slices his hand.

Yeah.

That, that one note piano thing, the silence, like it's, it grounds you in the feeling of despair that Mickey is feeling.

So I love when directors are able to, and whoever is doing like the sound design, is able to really capture, like picking the right song for the right moment.

And you can do the same thing with Nasher.

There's a song called Nasher's Amazing, and I think there's two versions of it.

And they really do bring you back to this feeling like Nasher cares for Mickey.

It is their soundtrack, it's their love story.

So, the soundtrack for this film is actually entirely done by someone called Jung Jae-il.

This is my first time coming across his work.

Yeah.

Absolutely amazing, or their work.

I don't actually know who this person is, but absolutely amazing.

Jung was also on the soundtrack, or did, created most of the soundtrack for both Parasite and Squid Games.

Yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

So, crazy, crazy bag, crazy bag.

Yeah, Jerry touched on something I really wanted to talk about, which is like the difference in the, how good the portrayal or the use of the sound was for a lot of things.

Specifically for me, narration was so sad when he's talking about his past.

And it kind of, I think it kind of aligns with like that emotional isolation.

Then when he's talking about his mom, there's like hopeful tones in the music.

It's soothing, it's nice.

And he only remembers his mom because he smells the shampoo on that woman.

And that kind of calms him until he remembers that he's kind of blaming himself for his mom's passing.

And to talk to talk about what Steve said about 18, yeah, that scene where he's essentially trying to kill 18 in the, there's even a difference in their posture when they, when it comes to decision that I'm going to have to kill this person.

18 does it head held high.

No hesitation.

17 is taking a lot of time.

His shoulders are down.

He doesn't even have like good form in case, like if he's trying to hit him.

And as you notice, he comes like halfway and is just kind of like standing above him.

And in that, immediately 18 turns around.

18 is like full mass, like shoulders back, looking almost down at 17.

And you're almost, you're kind of confused, like is this the same person?

Yeah, and I really love like that.

The personality difference and like that divergence and identity is really showing.

And it's fucking amazing.

It's fucking amazing.

There is one more thing I liked.

This is visually as well, we're talking about here.

There is the dinner scene where the way the camera pans, to abstract away from that for a second.

I love how a little bit of time when you're watching a film, you're so focused on the characters that you're watching in this scene.

But Bong always likes to do this thing where the entire scene is alive.

So the extras are, yes, they're extras, but they're still useful.

And one really great transition for me is the one where, I think her name is Kai, is it Kai?

Yeah.

She comes in, right, she comes in, catches them about to do the threesome.

And then Nasha and Kai are talking.

And in the background, you can see the assembly going on, on the television, and then we transition straight into that going on.

Because the extras are not just random people in the cafe that don't matter to the scene.

They are part of the story as well.

And it's like we're following these characters, but every single thing going on behind them is still purposeful.

When the scientists are not paying attention to Mickey as he falls down with no board to pick up his body, that is still useful.

We know what they're doing, but we also learn actually the things that they were working on later in the film.

And there's a lot of little things like that.

I think there are so many instances of that that Bong did.

Like even I caught it very early on in, again, it's been a while since I saw the film, but very early on when they're in the recruiting station scene, when Mickey's signing, like you're watching the film and you know who Paterson is, but a lot of times in the recruiting scene, the camera isn't on Paterson even.

Like it's focusing, every single extra is coming alive.

And we have the one person who is, for lack of a better term, using...

Mark Ruffalo's character, the commander, the councilman, whatever we call him.

You know what I mean?

And that's just an extra, Mickey's over there confused and all of that, but that's not the focus at this point in time.

And everything that's going on, like when the alarm goes off or whatever, the whole scene, the whole building, for lack of a better term again, is alive.

We see it again when Ruffalo is giving that speech and the chaos breaks out in the room and everybody's fighting and all of that is going on.

It's like, you can't even pick someone to focus on because again, every single scene, regardless of if they're just extras or everyone in the background is alive and is actively involved in the culmination, which is all of them.

Yeah.

Even in that scene where 17 comes back from almost dying and you're like, why are we in the hangar?

Why are we focusing on these two people who are seemingly unimportant extras, arguing about bringing the Rock in?

And I just felt like it felt like a very good transition into the story because Mickey's not even in that, like he's not in frame for half of that.

So that was like really good to see as well.

But I think what I now want to talk about is Mickey, the cloning as a whole and like the personality differences and why do we think there were some of those personality differences?

I think one thing on my rewatch that I noted that I don't think I noted the first time was the clones only sync memory once a week.

Let's say this week, I was feeling very down, maybe emotionally.

My memory synced and the last safe point is me through a heavy depression.

So maybe I'm a little bit more needy.

So now, maybe next week and that's the week I die, I'm over my depressive bump.

You get me, I'm more confident or in a better space, but then I die.

So the next clone picks up from depression with me.

So I feel like that maybe could be it, or it could also just be like crazy negligence, because we saw how those science guys were handling it.

Yeah.

How do you guys feel?

I don't disagree with that, because I actually had that question through the film as well, like how would like Mickey 18 know enough about Mickey 17, if Mickey 17 presumably died and never came to back up up to the last mission he did?

I just in my head kind of assumed that maybe they started doing things a bit faster as well, so like there's less like, there's less lag.

I know they don't exactly have cloud backups yet, clearly they haven't set up.

They don't seem to have set up the internet if they can't figure out, I don't know.

But maybe they have, maybe they have, maybe they just don't think it's necessary to have cloud backups, but that would be nice if there was live streaming of Mickey's memories into brick.

But I mean, the question is like, you know, all of that is on the cloud, and the cloud is a collection of massive data centers, can't do that.

Where would that be?

Well, maybe not cloud, but maybe NFC or PC.

Yeah, something, something that's like live streaming Mickey's memories into.

But I think that could also be, what is that?

I was just going to say, more importantly, I think it brought up the argument about two things.

One, how to realize that every time you wake up, that you just died again, even if you don't experience, because this was something that was interesting to me.

Everyone kept asking, what is it like to die?

Work that out.

Back up his memories after dying.

He like, this is a backup that hasn't yet experienced death.

Yes.

He's okay with the fact that every time he's born, it means he's died again, but he gets to live, but he hasn't actually experienced death.

So, that was interesting to me.

And what that does on the psyche, but then there's also the nature versus nurture argument.

For one, the nature is slightly different since it's a bunch of random materials recycled into a new printed body.

Even if you assume that it's broken down to the same carbon molecule at its very molecular level.

The fact is, this particle that makes up the brain of Mickey 15, is not the same particle that makes up the brain of Mickey 16.

And so there will be slight differences on the nature, but also the nurture comes in.

And that's, that's, I've been looking for how to describe it.

I think the time gap gives the perfect sort of space for that to happen.

Like if there are personality changes that are not recorded through memories, and even just waking up with a flood of memories, it is literally something that is added to you, as opposed to something that you experience.

So how you're going to, how that brain is going to engage with it will be slightly different.

It's probably why Mickey 17 and Mickey 18 can have different perspectives on who to blame for the accident.

That's true.

I think there is also the added question about like, okay, so Mickey is experiencing pain, experiencing death, but typically there are, in your brain, in your hippocampus, there's neurological markers and scars for when you experience traumatic experiences, but he's getting a new brain each time.

So there's none of that.

And we saw how, so like Mickey doesn't, we don't, Mickey has a tummy upset, they kill him.

Do you understand how insane that is?

Like Mickey has never broken a bone and like they've fixed it, you know, or waited for some kind of recovery.

Like, Ofili, this is gross.

So you answered one of, why I said it wasn't a great film is because I left it so many questions, right?

When you started talking, you answered one of those questions, but now you've confused me again.

So I was wondering why, like when, like for example, with Loki and Deadpool or whatever, when we have variance, the variance is essentially the same person, right?

Yes.

A different variation of the same exact person.

So it's pretty much the same personality and all of that.

So that's why I was very confused.

Like why are they so different, like personality-wise?

But then you kind of answered that with the whole like different lag in time, in time jumps, outside and depressed or whatever.

This is the first thing that my person comes to.

This is what he goes out of.

So that kind of makes sense.

But now you're telling me that, the markers or whatever in the brain don't exist anymore.

So it's like, okay, shouldn't they foundationally be the same person?

But then, but then, if they download all the memories as they come to, wouldn't that be the same as re-experiencing the pain and then creating those markers on your brain again?

The question is, unless Mickey's memories were downloaded after he died.

Because that is when he's experiencing the pain and the traumatic experience.

Because all we're getting is time skip, this is how I died, I know how I died.

But I don't have the physical trauma of or like the nagging.

Okay, like, you know how you've played sports and, you know, you could be completely healed off of an injury, but your body still doesn't want to do certain things because it remembers the pain.

Yeah, he doesn't have that.

Okay.

Yeah.

But he has the knowledge that it exists.

He has the knowledge that this happened to me.

So I find that very interesting.

And I don't know, maybe it was built into design because they don't want him, you know, I think we talked about compounded trauma from like, you know, experiencing multiple deaths on the episode with PFD.

But did he experience any of the deaths now that we think about it?

Yeah.

So, so in the next time, I want to say yes, but like, it's a very different way to experience it when everyone around you essentially says, oh yeah, you died.

And then, oh yeah, so basically, last week, what do you, oh yeah, it was the other you, you know, the one that died.

Yeah.

Like, I can just imagine that being a burden of contention over time.

And then plus, let's just, it makes perfect sense that if one version of Mickey is just so anxious, the next one will be almost vengeful, especially given the way they treated him in the preceding three, when it came, like, literally, oh, take in all the viruses, let's make a vaccine, just save mankind.

And it also begs to, I mean, I know the answer to this, because obviously they have the multiples role in place, but if they were going to do this, why did they have to, why did they, why did they have, why did they need a human being to essentially give up it?

Like, why couldn't you just sell image rights and create aid and like an AI body that actually is just, your purpose is to be expandable now.

It's still ethically questionable.

Sell immigrant?

Image rights.

My god.

My god.

Wow, I can't even imagine the image rights.

Like, you could have my likeness and I guess enough to have like a functional.

Aisle with my face and body.

Exactly.

Like, I feel like they will probably be even worse in terms of treatment to that little thing.

And they will probably have a thing like one of those movies where you just realize that the AI has emotions too and care for them.

But so it is interesting that we have a true human here.

But at the same time, is he?

Because again, he is literally a meat matrix with digital memories downloaded.

Meat matrix.

That was crazy.

I want you to answer his question.

Is he really human?

I want to hear it taken there.

I think.

What is human?

I don't know.

That's one of my next things.

And my question really is, it's not even just like, is he really human?

It's like, remember in the Manicover situation with the multiples, the church guy comes out and he's talking about each soul should have one body.

And I get that.

It's kind of like a techie.

Each soul should have one body at a time.

But the question is very interesting metaphysics versus like sci-fi.

And it kind of opens a weird paradox of like, if souls exist, are the Mickeys sharing one or reprinting souls?

That's why I'm wondering if the Mickeys have souls.

But again, that's when you come into the idea of what exactly is the soul.

Is the soul just the experience of awareness?

Because if that's what it is, then you're talking about consciousness.

Is consciousness and the soul the same thing?

Where does that line come from?

I'm so stressed about it.

We are so stressed.

I mean, think about this.

Let's say, for example, we copy you, Ofili, right?

Yeah.

But then we put Stephen's memories inside that.

That is a completely new process.

So, why is it that if we copy you and put your memories, it's the same person?

When now you're like at the point of copying, your experience of, actually, Invincible has a perfect explanation of this.

But the experience of continuity that you have diverges at the point where you don't copy or whatever.

Because now these are two separate beings experiencing the world from different perspectives.

So, are they still the same person?

I think we should go on and on and on, especially because now, even in that question, you've started to use different terms.

Like you've said person, you've said consciousness, you've said soul.

I think within whatever umbrella we're dissecting these things, there's different answers.

Because if you're talking divinity under a Catholic church or whatever, there's some creature out there that has one soul in three forms, God.

And you can make the argument that the different beings, or the different vessels that carry that same soul are three persons, but it's one soul.

You know what I mean?

So I think if you were to create a new version of Ofili, but put my memories in it, technically, if we're to use that understanding of souls, that would be my soul, right?

In that body.

So it's taking the soul to be kind of your mind.

My essence.

Yeah.

Okay.

I agree with Steve on that.

I agree with Steve on that.

The one thing I will say to that with that Trinity thing, which I agree to that point is why I cannot use it.

Actually, you continue because I don't want to.

Yeah, I think it's slightly more than just the memories.

And that brings me back to what I said earlier, because why are they different?

Like really, really why is 17 so different from 18?

And we've kind of touched on that and, you know, where their 10 memories lapse or whatever.

Like it's the same, it's more than the memories, it's the essence.

It's like what makes Mickey Mickey other than the things that he's gone through.

Like the things that he's been through, his past trauma, his mom and all of that, kind of are very paramount in making Mickey why he's Mickey.

They formed the essence of Mickey.

And no matter what he goes through, no matter what version of him dies or whatever, whatever memories, wherever his lag ends, he's still going to have that essence because of the trauma that he's been through or he's had from childhood.

So I think that's what makes his soul his soul.

Like whether you end his memories on Tuesday or Wednesday and he dies on Thursday or whatever.

So I think like all the multiples are sharing the same, because all the multiples are sharing the same essence.

There's no argument about that one.

Whether we agree on what the soul is, because all the multiples are sharing the same essence, there's a lapse in continuity, but they pick up.

That's where I want to come to.

We pick up from where one must have left up at some point.

I'm of the opinion that it's the same, so different.

Think, put it this way.

I hate to bring, introduce another concept to this, right?

But just stick with me for a sec.

You know how I end up here, there's so many like timelines, and then the TVA is there trying to prune, like divergent timelines or whatever.

When there's a, and when there's a variance, right, that does something slightly different from a sacred timeline, they prune that reality, blah, blah, blah.

But like that diversion creates a completely new timeline.

Now, to run it back to like the Trinity argument, the thing that keeps the Trinity one, in my opinion, is the idea of oneness and continuity.

They're not just one being separated into three permanently, they're one being separated into three that still operates, at least the way they believe it, still operate as one.

There's almost a hive mind coming to it.

There's no merging of Mickey 17 and 18 anymore, and that's why I think they're like separate beings, and maybe that's what we should be focusing on, like forget about the soul.

Because again, if you say soul, like does this meat matrix with digital memories have a soul, or is this like literally just a thing?

So the question is...

Oh, he's still a being.

You just wanted there, because...

Ah, okay, I'll keep you going.

I guess the question really is like, especially in the case where 17 and 18 are alive at the same time, so what is going on?

Is the soul shared?

Is it split or is it thinning out?

And if it's thinning out, is the quantity or quality of his soul dwindling?

Like, where do we stop?

Where do we draw the line?

So, this is why I prefer to look at them as...

Okay, this is why I'm going with beings instead of souls, but let's assume beings and souls for the sake of argument.

I would assume that they're completely different people from the split.

So, instead of looking at it as, okay, it's split and it's thinning out, I'm looking at it more of what is the new whole?

Like, not Mickey 17 and 18 together, but what is Mickey 18's experience as a persona now?

What is 17's experience as a persona now?

Those are two separate personas that deserve to live and experience life as they're brought into it.

Okay.

If that makes sense.

That does make sense.

I like that.

I do want to, man, Steve, Steve looks very tired over this philosophy talk right now.

But I'm so sorry.

But Steve, you brought up the church and Jerry brought up the Trinity.

I got to go.

Let me tell you guys.

So one of my biggest problem with Snowpiercer, and I want to tell you, I really, I slightly hated Snowpiercer, one, because it started Chris Evans.

Two, two, because it felt like for the whole movie, Chris Evans was trying to be a martyr.

Oh, my God.

He tried to sacrifice his arm like three times until the very fucking end.

And he finally got what he wanted.

He's like, because I ate her, like the pregnant woman's arm or whatever.

Spoiler, I guess.

But now I've got questions about martyrdom and yeah.

So Mickey's repeated deaths.

I feel like it's like in the Bible or in religion, like we literally formed a massive religion over the course or over the whole point of resurrection, reincarnation.

But here it is reincarnation going corporate.

He doesn't return to grow spiritually.

He just returns to serve, which feels very interesting.

How do you guys feel about that?

Because I feel like one line in my head is I think it was, I forgot, was it Timo?

Where he was like, you've died plenty of times.

What are you afraid of?

And crazy because very big nod to Buddhism in a twisted way because Buddhism believes in samsara and like the whole, you know, cycle.

And it's like twisted way of the detachment.

But also it's insane because I remember in one of the earliest scenes with that woman, and this is funny as fuck, she said, get used to dying.

This is your job.

And again, in this whole sense of crazy religious language around duty and sacrifice, how do you guys feel?

We keep talking about meat matrix and it's like in again, the Bible resurrection was something beautiful.

You know, it was something crazy important point for us.

But for Mickey, there is no sacredness in his vessel, essentially.

And we see it because again, he's having food poisoning, they want to kill him.

And they're not killing him in like a special way.

I'm talking, take him out the back like old yellow.

Take out the carpet from the ground.

Can't have his blood staining the good Turkish carpet.

Crazy stuff.

How do you guys feel?

I think I'm glad that you say reincarnation and gone corporate because I think for Mickey, whatever number we're tacking on as a subject, for Mickey, reincarnation doesn't seem to serve a super religious purpose, which is what you said then.

The Catholic Church doesn't believe that we can reincarnate on earth.

There's no reincarnation here.

When you die, you're going to be raised up to serve a purpose above.

If you pass the test down here, you praise God for the rest of your life.

If you didn't pass the test, you burn in hell for the rest of your life.

Whatever, simple as short.

So I think the point of reincarnation in whatever religious context, or I'm not too familiar with Buddhism or whatever, but I know there must be a purpose to it.

There must be a divine purpose to it.

If your job wasn't done here on Earth, then you have another life and you come back and you do that job or whatever, and you keep going until your jobs are done or whatever.

I don't know.

But for Mickey, they're reincarnating him to further along the human race.

This new race that they're servicing, they're journeying to a new land.

They need someone to test out if it's safe.

So that's your purpose.

When you die, if you've served your purpose, then we'll find a new purpose for you.

If you haven't served your purpose, you go back to living that same purpose again.

So I think even though the film tries to use a lot of religious, which it does, it brings in the idea of religion as much.

I'm one of the people, and I saw some people arguing about this in letterbox, I'm one of the people that thinks all of that is a sham or that doesn't really serve as much a purpose as like the film tries to paint it to be, obviously.

I don't think Bong is trying to do some deep dive on, you know, like religion or anything.

The way Danny did with his Dune films, I think he's just using that as an aspect to see that people believe in anything that you give them a chance to believe in.

I think this film is a dive on corporates like capitalism and corporates.

Yeah.

And all of that.

And I think that's really what Mickey is.

I don't even know if I've answered the question, but yeah.

No, I'm just asking for a general feeling.

I want to just pick up there, because something I said when Ofili and I talked about this with popcorn was about the idea that, let me just go straight into this whole soul.

And I think it's great that you mentioned the whole idea of religion and how, and you mentioned how resurrection is viewed in a lot of religious contexts.

And I think even when you look at a lot of spiritualists, whether that's New Age spiritualists or like some of the more orthodox religions that we're more familiar with, there is a reverence to the idea that there is a world beyond the reality that we experience.

And whether you look at religion as a tool to control or not, there is a reference for it that is very different from the way corporates and just capitalist society in like in contrast, has a disdain for its elements, and elements being the people that exist within their systems.

So the very same thing, the very same concept that is sort of adored and glorified in Christianity and in other religions, or the very same concept that is treated with care.

I'm not saying necessarily that this is the great thing or not, or perfect or whatever, but the people who would subscribe to these religions would treat these things with care and with love and reverence.

You throw that in the cap to this context, and it is stripped out of any sort of regard for it.

Yes.

Taking this down to like, this is just, we're just going to exploit this as much as we want.

At the same time, he also touched on something that I feel he was doing.

So I feel like a lot of the time, a lot of his films will obviously hamper on the fact that capitalist society is ruined in lives, and he will find many different ways to show where that's, to show that divide, whether it's talking about it with food scarcity or environmental stuff like Okja and Snowpiercer, or both of them here.

He's also throwing it in with religion as well.

Like, they, he sort of vaguely comments, and I agree that he doesn't do a deep dive on this at all.

No, he doesn't.

He vaguely comments on the idea that people, like you said, people will believe in anything.

And people will also use that as a tool.

Like, the reverence that they have for-

And the muscle, yeah.

Yeah.

It is very akin to the way a lot of some people admit.

Let's just say some politicians, for instance, who ride on the idea of religious superiority, in some sense, to achieve whatever their goals are, but it's still inherent and selfish.

I think that's more of what's the focus.

It's not even in the focus, but it's more of what is being touched on here.

And it's still to exploit and to maximize my profits and to grow my agenda.

So I think that's where, that those are my thoughts, because I didn't really have...

No, fair enough.

I do agree.

I agree.

Yeah, that's right.

I think I definitely agree.

I think Bong does a really good job of painting these themes, religious Norse, Buddhism.

I think they're present for a reason.

Like even the name of where they're going to predestine, they haven't gone there yet.

Maybe they know what it looks like, but they named it Niflheim.

And in Norse mythology, isn't that like barren, cold wasteland, ice and mist?

They cast people there for punishment.

And I feel like it does, it could be like symbolic.

So again, religious tones, doesn't only have to be Christian, but like, you know, and it's just kind of where they send souls who go there to serve and fade.

I find, yeah.

Yeah, I'm almost like Mickey.

And I find that very interesting.

Big thing for me that I kept, I was like, why is that there?

Was the golden gavel?

They had it in the glass case.

And I was just like, again, I guess, judgments is such a big thing in the film.

So maybe that plays a role with that.

We can flesh that out some other time.

But I do like what you guys are saying.

And essentially, like, I definitely agree.

Religion isn't gone.

It's just kind of rebranded.

That's why they keep calling, they go from saying the church, sorry, the company.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like, just we didn't outgrow it.

We just industrialized it.

Yeah.

Which is like such an interesting thing.

Exactly.

Because that is a reality for a lot of thing, a lot of these societies, let's call them that.

Today, like, even when you try, if you've ever tried to be behind the veil and see how things run, you kind of, even when they're, even if they have like, non-profit status, they kind of have to run as a business to exist and to be able to survive in the world.

Because capitalism has entrenched itself in even that, that's supposed to be above human like existence, right?

You have to operate as a business.

But the thing about operating in capitalist society is eventually its corruption will take root in you.

So people who exploit, because the system is built to benefit those who exploit, they will always be able to exploit it, whether it's religious, whether it's scientific, whatever the case may be.

As long as the system in place is maximize profit and exploit, there will always be that evil, let's put it that way.

I think that's pretty funny because recently with a couple of my friends, we have a joke and it's very bad, it's a very bad joke, so please do not cancel us.

We said to be, we're talking specifically in finance because we're all in that space, but we kind of expanded it and we found examples in other areas.

So we said to be at the highest level in almost anything for 10 plus years, when I was talking about being great and moving up for two years, but 10 plus years, 20 plus maybe.

You have to be either one of two things.

You have to be an asshole or you have to be autistic.

Like you have to be, and like we then expanded it to like neurodivergence.

Yeah.

And it really is to like function and thrive in a capitalistic society.

You have had to either be an asshole to people or you had to be like kind of neurodivergent.

And then your asshole-ness is kind of excused.

Where does Ilo Vosk follow this?

It's a, he's both.

He's, it's both.

I don't know.

But if you really think about it, Magnus Carlsen for Chess, neurodivergent bucket, Messi, neurodivergent bucket, LeBron, asshole.

Like we can, we can go around.

Let me say, cause then-

I think, I think there's a science to it, probably.

I don't know.

I don't even know if I would have engaged in expiry.

But I think there's something to the idea of, let's just take, let's limit the description.

Cause obviously neurodiversity is like, there's a wide range of, yeah, like the spectrum that different people experience.

But if you limit it to just, let's focus on people who might struggle with social cues.

For instance, a way that you're able to survive in an environment by removing the emotional context that someone else might have, and just focusing on the letter day to day that will allow you to thrive because you're-

Perfect in the capitalist machine.

It's perfect.

It's like a worker that doesn't get tired.

Which is unfortunate.

It's insane.

Because you're still being exploited.

You're still being exploited.

And really and truly, it's really just learn and move.

And but yeah, so guys, closing up the episode, this has been a great episode of The Cinephile's Aisle.

Love, love having you guys.

I got feedback one time that they liked that, I think it was either the last episode or two episodes ago, where we were like, if we could leave our listeners with one thing to watch, it kind of tells people, because we had talked about doing a virtual film club.

We are still, that is still TVV.

That is, yeah, yeah.

People like looking forward to something to watch and then hoping that we can start up the episode talking about if we did watch that or whatever.

So I'd like each of us to-

Drop a wreck?

Drop a wreck, yeah.

Okay.

Jerry, what are you going with?

Just because we started like this, I will say common side effects.

If you're not already watching that, you absolutely-

I'm like two upstairs behind, which is not true.

If you're not already watching common side effects, you absolutely should be because it's great.

I promise to give a better overview of what it is.

I'm looking at you guys' time.

So we follow our main characters who have discovered a mushroom that can heal absolutely anything.

Then throw in Big Pharma, guns and it's a cartoon.

That's all I'm going to say.

It's amazing.

You should go watch it.

Steve, what about you?

I hate the concept of Big Pharma so much because they actually like, when I'm watching a thriller or whatever, recrime stuff, it feels like fiction.

But Big Pharma feels like a documentary because all that stuff that they're depicting is so real.

It's what they do.

I can't, I can't disassociate.

No, it's actually insane because the amount of evil that they do is so cartoonish.

Man, when they, you know, our Lord and Savior, Luigi, Manjuni, when he sniped that bro, that year's hero, right?

You know, like, sorry to his kids and all, like I feel bad the man died, but like that's where it ends for me, just the kid, because I saw the thread on Twitter, there were multiple threads even of people talking about all the claims that UHC has denied and this person that died and this person that, and it's just like, and this is not even like, this is not pharma, like this is insurance, we're talking like different things, but it all ties in, like all these things all tie in.

So it's just like, bro, I mean, anyway, yeah, to share the recommendation, I'm going to check it out.

For me, I'm going to go with the film.

The Accountant 2, I think it's next weekend?

Yeah, I think that's next weekend, yeah.

Yeah, so I saw the first Accountant, it got destroyed by some people, like, it's not destroyed, but it was like 60% or 6 over 10 or whatever.

But I loved it, bro.

I gave that film a 9, and I feel like just because we're talking, I think we're talking about new divergent people.

Yeah, so that's one example of an autistic person that is, you know, at the top of his top of his top of his game.

And I don't know if this makes any sense, but I see some representation in myself.

Like when I'm watching, bro, the autism, I knew we were going to say something.

I'm just asking.

I was asking.

I feel like I can see a little bit of myself in, bro.

I don't know why.

But anyway, The Accountant 2 is coming out, and Jon Bernthal always puts on a good performance in anything that he is.

He goes to the full weight for his in that.

I don't think the film is going to be as good as the first one.

I think they're trying to go franchise and trying to be bigger now.

So that never goes well, but it's on my list.

I'm going to be in there.

I heard it's more built out as a buddy comedy than like John Wick, which I feel like might be really good.

I feel like that might be fun.

I think to finish up on my rec, I'm thinking should I go niche or should I go like...

I think, okay, following up with Steve, something that I think people should, well, I guess I would just go like streaming since everyone's kind of going.

I think something that people should rewatch is The Instigators on Apple TV.

Matt Damon, Casey Affleck, that was fucking amazing.

Really good television, really good movie.

I actually just watched it, like, a few days ago.

The jokes, flying, I mean, it was fucking amazing.

It was fucking amazing.

I like that.

There's something I want to throw in.

It's awesome.

Because when we were coming up to this, I was thinking, oh, we need, like, where did body, because when I was listening to your episode, I thought about what have I watched that I really liked.

And I remember that I rewatched 17 again with my brother.

And I was like, where did all that genre of like Freaky Friday, body swap or age change, like, where did that go?

But then I realized it still exists.

It still exists.

A movie that we should watch.

Oh, I, some people probably have watched it.

It was on Netflix like a few months ago.

I watched it in February.

I think it's What's Inside.

That was an amazing movie.

It's What's Inside.

Yeah, like someone comes to, let's just call it a games night, because it wasn't a games night, like a retreat with friends.

And it comes with this device that allows them to sort brains for a bit.

And it just leads to some crazy hijinks.

That's the best we could put it.

That's a great movie to watch.

It's on Netflix.

The horror sci-fi thing?

I thought that was going to be much more weird.

Yeah, yeah.

I enjoyed it personally.

Okay, I'll try it.

I'll try it.

I'll try Most Likely Today and I'll let you know.

All right.

So, ladies and gentlemen, this has been TCA.

Oh, I said the instigators.

But if we're talking about something new that's coming out, maybe the...

I'm really thinking I'm gravitating to as the amateur.

I don't know how to say it, but it's the same...

Because he's basically acting the same like Mr.

Robot, but working for the CIA.

I think Mr.

Robot even kind of like, you know, Ramy is Ramy, you know?

Ramy is Ramy.

Ramy is Ramy, like, that's just kind of...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so the amateur...

Yeah, same.

We might cover that.

So we'll see, we'll see.

But yeah, just to close up, Mickey 17, less about cloning, more about being reduced to function.

I feel like the film explores a lot of identity.

We talked about memory, and we talked about the soul, we talked about being replaceable, and we talked about the rebrand of religion as both just being explored, as fuel, as whatever.

But I'm gonna leave you guys with a question right now.

If a newer, slightly better version of yourself walked into the room, what would you do?

You know, I'm not leaving you with a question, I'm leaving the listeners, you can let us know what you would do.

But I wanna hear you guys' response right now.

Yeah, that nigga don't exist though.

I'm not gonna lie, if you're that good, can you go to work and I just watch TV?

Like, you're the work off, I'm the funny one.

I mean, they said, let's...

Steve said he's going Mickey 18, killing him.

Said he don't exist.

I'm the exploit, son.

Jerry said capitalism is in this home.

He will kill me.

He will kill me, because I just realized I'm the LT and I created the EDO.

Oh, that's funny, that's funny.

Shout out to 777s.

Okay, yeah, I have to think about that.

Why was that my default answer?

Wow, anyway.

All right, this has been another episode of...

What would you do?

Me?

I don't know, man.

I think I'd really dive into what ways is he better.

You feel me?

Then I don't know if he's like, subjectively he is better kind of vibe.

Maybe I kill him.

I'm not gonna lie.

I feel like objectively, you gotta be objectively better.

Every way.

Then maybe I could, my head out.

I feel like he's gonna be able to choose.

If he's objectively better, he's probably going to know what I'm thinking.

He's probably gonna off me.

He's gonna know what you're thinking and who you're defending.

Yeah.

I know myself and if he knows me and I know him, then we both know that we both want to live, which is probably why we pretend like we don't want to kill each other.

That's fair.

Thank you so much for being in the plot, Jerry.

Of course.

This is great.

Like this is good vibes and always happy to terrorize a new audience.

You're always welcome back as well.

So just let us know if there's anything that you're thinking about covering or you want to talk about.

At CAA, we majorly focus on films, but we don't mind setting a little 2015 talking about TV shows.

Yeah.

Ladies and gentlemen, this has been another episode of the TCA.

Thank you so much.

Hope you guys have a great listen.