The Cinephile's Aisle
Two film haters and a microphone covering cinema classics, box office blockbusters, and everything in between!
The Cinephile's Aisle
Episode 27: "SUPERMAN" feat. Kibz
Almost a year to the date since our last Comic Book Movie, TCA returns to cover all things SUPERMAN and the verdict: #TheGunnWasLockedAndLoaded. Joined by Kibz (@TheBrothersGeekOutPodcast), they explore the core message of Hope (08:45) and how the film feels in comparison to other Superman movies (13:00), especially THAT red herring. Then they delve into modern audience's perception of the character (23:50) and the difficulties with writing a Clark Kent story in today's world, before closing out by talking about the bad & the ugly (30:40). TCA Verdict: 9/10.
Find us on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube at @CinephilesAisle.
Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to another episode of The Cinephile's Aisle, T CA. Today we're diving into all things superman and we're looking at how James Gunn. You know, the gun was loaded. It never jams. Never jams. Solid, solid movie. And yeah, we have a great guest for you today. Uh Kibbs.
Kibz:Thank you very much for having me on, guys. I'm Kibbs from the Brothers Geek Out Podcast. Uh, we run our own podcast, but I'm an artist as well. I'm I've been an illustrator for over 20 years. Uh, I've done a couple of my own comic books and children's books along the journey. But me and my brother started a podcast almost 10 years ago talking about uh men's mental health and pop culture, which we love, comic books. It started off with comic books and it's grown into the movie world. And yeah, we we we talk about our experiences in uh because he lives in uh a different part of the world. He is based in the he was based in the States when we started the podcast. He was in New York, Queens, and then he moved to Hong Kong, and that's when we kind of said, Let's start this podcast where we we were talking over, but it was basically two brothers connecting because we were quite close when we grew up, and we grew up about with comic books and movies. That was the pop culture we were raised up in. Um hip-hop as well played a big part of our lives as well. So my brother's a big Punisher fan, so he's a fan of the Punisher and he's a fan of Big Pun as well. Um New York Queens, that part was his place that he wanted to go first when he moved out of the UK. When he went to Hong Kong, we started talking about the Marvel movies when sort of we were coming to Infinity War and Endgames, and then we've just kind of continued, but we've talked about our our mental struggles as you know, being married, parents coming from a strict Islamic background, and how they found it hard for creatives to be in that industry because my my parents always said the that's the devil's work you're doing, that's the devil's working, uh and that's it. We've been podcasting ever since, and then you know, I've continued my art journey as well, and I'm looking to bring out another book next year for my kids. And uh that's been the journey so far. It was two brothers connecting from across the world talking about pop culture and comic books and mental health.
Ofili:Yeah, I love that.
Steve:Thank you. That's amazing. I I wish I could do something like this with like my brothers, bro. But like it's it's different when you're doing the things that you love with family, you know. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't feel like it doesn't feel like work at that point. It just feels like you're talking with your brother, bro, and that's that's amazing. Yeah, thank you for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Kibz:No, thank you. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for having me on.
Ofili:All right, so we're gonna kick it off. I guess how's your week been? What you've been watching, what you've been reading, just give us a little rec, a little taste of it.
Kibz:Man, okay, so uh yeah, it's been a busy week. Uh I'm a full-time dad, work from home dad as well. Uh so looking at the kids there at the know they're on summer vacation as well. I'm trying to keep two kids busy. Uh, but at the moment, currently, so I just finished watching Iron Heart. Yeah, so I just finished watching that, and uh I don't know what all the fuss is, but I I had great fun with it. Um it's a great science fiction fantasy program, which is not too grounded, I felt. And uh the ending shocked me a little bit, but I found it creatively really good, man. And I I'm I'm uh I know why Ryan Coogler had this quite close to his heart because he wanted to represent and he and he put uh you know creative people on this project, which I thought came out amazing. I and I love the suit. I know a lot of people had a gripe over the suit, but I was like, this is Riri's suit, like you know, she's gonna make it to how it is for her character. Yeah, uh I really enjoyed the show. Um it was good fun. It was good fun, great soundtrack, great visuals. I love some of the I I like the way they head like headed with this program as well. Like, I'm getting a bit because in in Wakanda Forever we didn't get much about Riri. She was kind of like thrown into it. Yeah, she was and I've always because of because of the comic books of where her origins were, I was like, they didn't really give us that aspect in Wakanda Forever. So I'm happy that she got this series to to kind of show like her hardships, her mental health aspects of things, and and and what it takes to be a hero because it's always never the straight path.
Steve:Exactly.
Kibz:It's never the straight path, you know. We've always walked a line between good and bad.
Steve:Yes.
Kibz:And what do you do as a young teenager when it comes to wanting to do something that you want to help, but I'm gonna have to do some crazy shit along the way.
Steve:Yeah, yeah. I think it's insane that you said iron heart because that was what I was gonna go with as well. But I also really enjoy I'm not gonna say it was great, um, because I there were a lot of not a lot, but quite a bit, you know, a number of flaws with the show. But the reasons why everyone hated it for was were like ironically the reasons why I loved it, you know, like her being a girl or a black or whatever, and like the ways that they depicted some of the choices that she made. I'm like, these are great. I think because it's so attached to Tony, and because like she had the Stark internship and because of the literal like iron iron heart and the suit and all of that, a lot of people had that as their baseline, and you know, that whole character, because he's obviously one of the biggest comical characters in the world. So a lot of it comes with that, like the Iron Heart TV shows comes with the Iron Man fan base already, and they see one decision that they feel like Tony wouldn't have made, they're criticizing the whole thing. But I'm like, it's a girl figuring it out, like she's going through grief, like you said, mental health struggle, right? And so when two parts or when two choices are laid in front of her, we can't be expecting her to make what we believe is the logical decision all the time, you know what I mean? Like she's literally dealing with the worst thing that someone can experience, and she's trying to navigate life as a person, as a girl, as a teenager. It's a coming of age theory, right? Wow, how this mantle of being the superhero with this suit that can do all these things, you know what I mean? So I really love the direction that you took in there. Some choices were questionable, some creative decisions that the showrunners made. I was like, okay, this feels very juvenile, feels very amateurish. But all and the final decision, too, I don't agree with that. Like the ending shocked me. I wasn't expecting that. I think it was surprising. I don't know if it's supposed to tee up to something else. Still haven't wrapped my head around it. But overall, really enjoyed it. I think the soundtrack was insanely good. Like every every episode, I was adding a new song to my place. I'm like, this is they're firing all feeling this right here. But um, yeah, no, uh amazing, amazing, amazing stuff there, for sure.
Ofili:Yeah, for me, um I haven't unfortunately I haven't watched anything superheroes since like Superman. Uh I've been doing uh the I found this tweet on Twitter about the unofficial Leonardo DiCaprio trilogy, where it's like it's you start off with Django Unchanged, then you go into uh The Great Gatsby and you finish up with uh Wolf of Wall Street, and it's like the unofficial uh trilogy of like American wealth and power through different eras. Yeah. So I'm re-watching all of these like sequentially, and it's it's so interesting how it feeds into each other, and the end is still the same, it's still like the same ruin. So I'm about to get into uh Wolf of Wall Street again. So excited.
Steve:I love that. I love when people are able to pull like random, you know, like that wasn't the intent for anyway making these films, but you know, as you're watching them, you realize, oh my goodness, there's a pattern here, you know what I mean?
Kibz:So I'm imagination is crazy, right? Like you know, some people will see uh a program and they'll see uh a totally different message to it. Uh but I think I love how the human mind works that you can link these three together and it will give you like a really extended story.
Steve:Yeah, yep, agree.
Ofili:Yeah, and I think what's insane is that all three movies came out in the span of like two years. Wow, yeah, from like 2012 to 2013, he had like the craziest run ever with these movies, yeah.
Steve:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ofili:So now kicking off, we're gonna talk about Superman 2025. How are we doing? How do we feel about that?
Kibz:Hope, hope, yeah, hope, hope, hope, hope, uh, kindness, everything that the the movie kind of the message that it was pushing out there. Uh I I loved it, man. Like, I'm I grew up on those comic books, wacky silver age Superman comic books where he was battling monsters and Lex was up to another island again and building stuff. Like, you know, it's it's stuff we grew up with, and I feel like what James did with it was exactly that. Like he just gave us what was coming out of a comic book. Uh it didn't have to be grounded, it didn't have to be like you know, in our world, it was done in a way where it was that is a fantasy. Like, you know, we grew up with fantasy movies and comic books, that's fantasy. Uh I came out smiling. I haven't had a movie do that in years where you're where everybody comes out of the screen and smiling and talking and laughing, and like it did have a powerful message because again, Superman's always been the immigrant story. I know there's this back and forth at the moment where you know nobody likes to see it that way, but very clearly an immigrant story it clearly is, and and it's biblical as well. Like these characters were based when Jerry and Joe did this character, it was based on biblical characters, yeah. You know, so I'm glad this movie was made and the way it was made as well. It just gave me a great feeling after. There's flaws, it's not perfect. There's flaws, it's not perfect, but to give the movie going experience to that extent where it was like everybody is feeling the same emotions, that's I think that's a positive thing that any artist can do. Like you you listen to Kendrick Lamar and you'd be like, Oh, I'm fired up, I'm ready, you know. You so you're like you you when you're feeling the music and you're feeling the creativity coming from the screen, listen, Mr. Mr. Terrific absolutely so stuck Eddie stole the scenes for me in that movie. He was brilliant. Um but yeah, I really happy feeling, dude. Like uh it's a superman that I've been, you know, we've all kind of been waiting for, I suppose.
Ofili:Yeah, I think also, like, as you mentioned earlier, you being a father, like it's so important being able to find these movies that like you can take your kids to and it just instills that hope, that optimism.
Kibz:Yes, definitely, definitely.
Steve:I think I I already knew I was going to love it. I said it in our little chat. I would find it very hard for me not to love this. One because I like James Cunn, but also because I wouldn't say like Spider-Man is my favorite superhero, so I wouldn't say like you know, I'm so excited for a Superman movie, but I grew up on those Justice Justice League cartoons, like you know, so I have his probably Superman is probably a superhero that I have watched the most in my life. But I can't remember watching a s a film like a Superman film and feeling like I really loved it, right? And so sharing everything that I heard and watching the press calling up to this, I just kind of felt like this was going to be it. And like like Kip said, you know, it's not it wasn't flawless per se, but it was everything that I wanted it to be, like everything that I needed it to be, everything I wanted to get out of it, I got out of it, right? And one thing I liked about uh I like about Gunn is at least personally, I don't think he is trying to be too coded or he's trying to hide the message, you know what I mean? Like I think he gives it to you straight up as opposed to someone you know, I'm I'm looking staring directly at you, Zack Snyder. I think he puts it out there, right? So to come out of it and see people arguing that, oh, this is like about the whole immigrant thing, and I'm like, bro, Lex Luthor literally yells alien at him as a slur in the way that you will yell, you know, or slur at someone that was from a different place. Like, I don't think it could have been made any more obvious than that. Exactly. Exactly. I and me being an immigrant as well, it's like I love a good immigrant theory, man. We've said that so many times on this podcast, and that was good. This was a good this is an amazing immigrant theory, and he won. So I loved it.
Ofili:Alright, I love that. Okay, so how do we feel in comparison to previous Superman movies? What's your what's your favorite?
Steve:I can go with this one, start because I just last night I just re-watched in preparation for this podcast, I rewatched Man of Steel. Um yeah, that's why I'm saying I'm looking at Isaac Snyder. I think for for one, right? The the Kev started his you know spiel by saying hope. It's literally what the the the show is saying, yeah. That's that's why they sent him away from Krypton. It was like being hopeful that this person, this beacon of hope, would you know propagate life, right? Or continue rather the life that's ending here on Krypton. Zach Snyder goes ahead and creates a film that this guy is so dark and like he's kind of like figuring it out, I guess, and being a good person, but it's like he's fighting internal battles that don't necessarily emanate hope. I feel like Zach Snyder was or man of steel rather wasn't like all about the the the heartfelt and the the entertainment and whilst still maintaining the underlying tones of you know hope again. I'm I'm sorry that I keep using that word, but it's like the central theme. Yeah, get away from it. And so if you're going to create a Superman film, or if you're going to create it, has to be that anybody that you come across, any any villain that Superman fights, there has to be some way to see the good in them. Because that's what Superman does, you know what I mean? Like regardless of how bad, obviously there's cases where he's had to make some choices in the past, but ultimately he's always trying to find the good, he's always trying to see the good in other people. He's always saying there's another there's a chance, there's a second chance, there's this, there's that. And man still doesn't do that. So I feel like if you're going to miss that very basic, it doesn't matter how brilliant, like cinematically your film becomes. Like, at the core, your if your Superman character isn't giving up what what it is that Superman stands for, it's a failure to me. And so compared to this film, this does all of that. Like my review literally said all that it had to be, like as Superman and Superman get. I think ultimately that's what it comes down to. Whatever other flaws or you know, little choices that Gunn did, or changes he made here and there, I I'm fine with them because I think he got the character. Carl L at its very core, he got that correct. So yeah.
Ofili:I think that's I think that's very interesting because I I want to hear what Kibbs has to say in regards to the changes, because I don't feel like the changes were small. I feel like he he almost like he he shifted like one superman's like whole thing was when coming here.
Kibz:The harem, the harem. Oh my god. The harem. Oh my god. Uh what a flip, which is amazing. Uh, just going off what Steve was saying about Man and Steel, I still adore that movie. I still love it. I feel like it was the beginning of something that wasn't finished, and I'll I'll appreciate it for what it is. It was supposed to be his origin story, they grounded the character a lot. Uh, but what it didn't have was, as you said, was the hope. Uh it didn't bring hope to the character, it didn't bring hope to humanity. That's what it was supposed to bring. Uh, but what Gunn did in this Superman, where you know, we all we've all grown up with you know, Jorell and Lara sending Superman to be a saviour almost, uh, to changing it to what he did there. I I remember him being in that screening, and everybody's mouth was like, all the Superman, because everybody's wearing Superman t-shirts and costumes and everything, and they were like, What's going on? So, but and and and I think, and this is just from me, because there is a lot of people that haven't read the comic books and don't know the like the full origin stories and haven't read else world stories. So I will class something like Man of Steel like an Else World story, the Batman as an Else World story. So, what he did here, because in the comic books it has been done, where I think it was uh Injustice Gods Among Us comic book, where you know Khalel actually is taking over Earth. He's you know, after he snaps Joker's uh neck, he takes over, and the AI that was sent, that was Jorel, starts agreeing with thinking, yeah, you know what, tyranny is the way forward if people are gonna learn. And then I think Superman Red Sun, he went he landed in Russia, and the same thing the parents did actually send him for so to like control, so they've done it in the comic books, one or two issues they've done it, but to do it in the movie world, oh my god, that's a complete flip, which had has had everybody talking about it. I think I've been on two other podcasts already, and it's been the main concern, but I think Gunn set it straight, he said it, like you know, his his parents, and he did it in Guardians of the Galaxy. Yeah, that's it. He may be your father, but he ain't your daddy, you know. And he's he's he's he's clearly said it, and and and it isn't always about the people that are always in front of him. And I think James has already provided that in his collection of work that he's done, and in the superhero world, he's done that where you know he's treated misfits and outsiders like the main characters and all the struggles as well that they've gone through. I mean, it's a great decision, it's something different for it moving forward. I mean, I don't know where the story's gonna head to, but it's gonna be interesting to see, you know, Kaleo and Clark trying to. I know in the ending, he has accepted the fact that the Kents are his parents, regardless. Yeah, but you're still gonna have struggle as you grow up as an orphan to kind of think, why would they send me like that? How? So it'd be interesting, it's an interesting take, definitely. Interesting take.
Ofili:I think uh it's really important that you noted that you know the Guardians of the Galaxy, like he has preloaded this message in other films. Yeah, but here on the big stage is it's wild. It's it's it's a bit of a shocker. But I feel like as someone, for me, it was something really exciting because as someone who like psychology undergrad, psychology master is, you know, really focusing and learning a lot about that nature and nurture. Seeing it in a movie on this scale is so insane. And it's it just I guess it really highlights that it doesn't matter what your genes are or what you're predisposed to, like you can still change.
Steve:Yes.
Ofili:About who is influencing you, who's in the environment with you, and you can still change. I think another thing another show that does like a really big um, I guess it's like a core aspect of it is Invincible or OmniMan. So that's like another one where it's like you're literally bred to destroy and conquer and you know, yeah, the tyrant, but you're changing. Yeah, it's it's interesting. Yeah.
Steve:I don't I don't personally okay, I don't personally feel I haven't read a couple of those comics, but I don't personally feel it was that ultimately came out as that big or it results in that bigger change for the Superman character in Gonz's film. Because like compared to Guardians of the Galaxy, right, Chris's character, Starlow, literally has to fight his birth dad, I guess. Like he has to fight the god Ego. Is that his name, Ego? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has to fight him, and it's a whole it's like it's it's the plot of the entire film, and it becomes bigger than it. He has to consciously decide to deride this father, fight him, defeat him, and go back to okay, this this man may have like breathted me, but he's not my father. Like, my people are back on earth, and at the end of three, he goes back to Earth. In this one, the it's not that much of a bat I it doesn't look like it's that much of a battle. Like, sure, he does have to go through the battle of oh, I had you know, I thought this was why I was sent here, and I thought this was the type of people that my parents are, and now I'm having to accept that okay, maybe I had some of these things wrong, but it doesn't feel as grand a conflict as it is in some of the other stuff. Again, I haven't read the comics, I don't know how to what scale it is on those uh in those mediums, but I feel like here it made sense, right? He's trying to, even though he's not creating like a uh a grounded character, he's not creating a grounded Superman or whatever, he's kind of throwing us right into the mix of it. He's still trying to show us that Clark is is accepting, you know, his because at the end of the day, Gunn is an American, and he said it that this was an American film. Like he said it this is the American way. And so he's trying to accept like his roots here and doesn't have to go too much of a battle. I think you know the end when he tells them to play, you know, those videos, and then he's replaced that with his um his his Kansas parents, I think that makes it obvious that he's it it wasn't that it wasn't that it wasn't that difficult for him to accept. So for me, sure, I I I saw that being a change, but I think because I saw it with a bunch of you know regular moviegoers, it wasn't that amplified for us. But I could see that being you know a thing on some other some other cases.
Kibz:Yeah, the c the comic book fans went mad. Excuse me, they go in with this, they're gonna do this. What? That was the first conversation I had. Like as soon as I came out of the screening, they were like, Kibs, what's going on here? I'm like, Well, they've done it in the comic books, it's not like the mainstream like story, but they've done it in Elsewhere's stories, so like yeah, uh we're gonna see repeats of this for generations of this story being told. New origins, old origins, whatever. But I kind of like the fresh take on this because it just gives me something different, and and and as as someone who loves cinema, who loves seeing things on the big screen, you want to be told different stories as well. So uh it's a different take on the super Superman mythology, but he still James has done something amazing over his career, is that he still kind of respects what has come, but what's gonna be in the future uh and what he's gonna bring to it. So I think they DC uh Warner Brothers made a a good bet getting him to jump on definitely because it's a great film, good fun film, and he knows he's a good storyteller, and he knows how to give individual characters a good story time as well. And remember, he's thrown us into a story, we're not we're not seeing everything from the beginning again. So it's very good that he could keep the audience engaged that way, and even for kids to just kind of jump in because most kids will already know where he's from. It's just give me some action. I want to see Superman fly and do all the cool stuff that he does, but uh represent humans in such a way he's he's done very well on that.
Ofili:That's fair. I think, in regards to the conversation that you just talked about, audiences. I feel how do you feel? Do you feel like modern audiences connect as well with Superman like they do with like Batman and Spider-Man? Because I feel like right now, big three, Spider-Man is kind of at the top for most people, and for like the slightly older generation, we see Patterson and you know, we see Batman. Okay, that's ours. Superman kind of fell behind.
Kibz:He did, he did, he did. They've struggled with that character for years. I mean, and Warner Brothers made some horrible decisions. Uh Warner Brothers, don't get at me. But you know, there's a reason why you invite me, is because I give my honest opinions, and yeah, whatever management and whatever troubles they were going through at the time, MCU was at such a high, and you know, WB were just trying to jump at it, and they they did some they made some terrible mistakes along the way. So there's loads of people to blame, but it's very difficult for the creative, the directors, the writers that are that's trying to put stories out there. And I think Superman struggled along the way. I mean, here's a character that is so strong beyond anything. How do you represent him on the screen? And I feel like what they what James did with this was bring him down to earth a little bit because one thing that's most people don't know about Superman is that he holds back, he never shows his full strength because, as you said before, Steve, he's he's always hopeful in people, whether they're bad and really bad, he's always still hopeful. So he never gives his 100%. Now, only time he did was uh Doomsday in the comic books, and there's another comic book where he fights some British punks, I can't remember what it was called, but he actually showed a hundred percent, and then they got scared and was like, Okay, you know what, just we'll leave it there, we're we're we're done. So, yeah, how do you how do you bring this character down so that us as general human beings, how do we connect? Then James did that with uh what's the character's name, Marley, who was the falafel guy.
Ofili:Yeah, the falafel guy.
Kibz:You know, you put him in one scene, you put him in one scene where he helped Superman, yeah, and then you shoot him in the next scene, which was horrible to watch, but then you gave him humanity at the end when they open the newspaper and you say the hero of Metropolis, and I'm like, ah bro, why are you trying to make me cry for, bro? Why are you trying to make me cry? So, like, he he he knew the assignment, he knew what this character means to a lot of people, and like Spider-Man and Batman, you're right, are at the top at the moment now, and they've been able to ground those characters where Spider-Man's almost like a street level superhero. I I know he does his big things, but he's mainly the street level. Same thing with Batman. So those two more relate to like the adults and the and the kids. I think James has finally got a middle ground with Superman, which is great.
Steve:Yeah, that's that is what I was even going to say. So you've kind of took the words out of me. But Spider-Man, I feel like a lot of kids, again, like I said earlier, Spider-Man's my favorite superhero. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people can see themselves. And Stanley always said anyone can wear the mask, like you have to treat the mask like anyone can literally be in it. And so, with the way with the it's one of the superheroes that we've gotten to see different people play, just literally since I was a kid, I can tell you like four Spider-Mans already off top of my head. At least, and so and it's a range of a range of people. If you don't see yourself fully reflected in one, you see yourself in another one, and you know what I mean? And it's just a kid at the end of the day running around in New York. So, like a lot of people feel like they can relate to him. He's very quirky, he's very witty, he talks a lot, he's broke, he can't really keep his girl for too long, you know what I mean? Love a boy at heart, all that stuff, so it makes sense. Like Batman as well, he is he's not like as street as Spider-Man, because at the end of the day, he's a billionaire, but with the stuff that he kind of gets into most times, he's more earthy, he's more relatable. Yeah, that's right, yeah. That's right, that's right. Superman, conversely, he's a god, bro. Like to humans, he's a so how exactly do you sell a character that's a literal god? You know what I mean? It's like what stories are you even going to do?
Ofili:Let me tell you what you do. You you make him have a fight with his girlfriend on screen.
Steve:But yeah, like I think it's a it's a hard, it's a hard, you know, and I think it's always going to be there for me. Like if you were to ask me who my big three is, at any point in time, you know, since I've been watching CBMs, Superman was always going to be there. But I'm I'm never going to feel I'm never going to relate to him or be as excited to watch, you know, as I would like the Batman or Spider-Man film. And that's just because again, the relatability thing and him being a whole god and all of that. So yeah.
Ofili:Yeah, I think well, one thing is that Batman is I feel like it's it's so much easier to write a Batman story. The the darker vibes, it's the banana, he's snooping. You're basically making a noir detective film.
Steve:Yeah, exactly. I always say mask of zero.
Ofili:So it's it's pretty, it's pretty easy, but with Superman, like you said, how do you like ground a character like that? How do you make them relatable? And like I just mentioned, you make him lose a fight to his girl within the first 10 minutes, then for like 20 minutes, you have some some villain kidnap his dog and see him crash out. Like so I think I think for this, they did a really great job like making you feel bad for someone that's a god. Yeah.
Steve:That's true, that's true, that's true.
Ofili:Yeah.
Steve:I agree. I agree. I think that's that's because they don't throw in again, it's like we're thrown into the film, but we don't we don't feel like we don't it doesn't feel like work. It doesn't feel yeah, it's no there's no franchise fielding going on. There's no like we're not too pressed about the origin story, we're literally thrown into this guy getting his ass beat. Like that's how we meet him, that's how we introduce to him. And then right after he gets his ass whooped, he get hit the dog beats his ass. He goes to his girlfriend, beats his ass. It's like, you know, content Life, life, life, life, life. From the start, you don't feel that um otherworldly perfect human thing.
Ofili:Yeah.
Steve:I don't even think Carl L is mentioned in the entire runtime, unless maybe when his friends are talking to him, but I don't remember hearing that. You feel like Clark is it's Clark, bro. Like it's Clark, yeah. I feel bad for that guy, you know.
Ofili:So yeah, you do because you also see him like get like getting a fight with his boss as well. So it's just like this is a regular guy.
Steve:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So done. I mean, he didn't joke. He done well. He did well. He did well on that, definitely, definitely.
Ofili:Okay, now we've talked about the good, we've talked about things we've loved, we've talked about the history, we have to talk about the bad. Kids take us home.
Kibz:Oh man, the subplots. I that's the only thing that gets me with like amazing, like you you've got the main message, which is great. It's the subplots. There was like sometimes there's far too much convoluted stuff going on, and you're like, you've got the Mr. Terrific part, you've got the Justice Gang part. Uh my issue is that it should have been just a Superman movie, but we've got far too many characters in here.
Steve:Yeah.
Kibz:That that the the subplots with the the the pocket dimension as well, like it's a great scene, but it was like, oh man, like I thought I f I felt like that could have been a story for another one to introduce us to the pocket dimensions because where I feel that could lead to is too much rushing. Because from what I heard recently from San Diego Comic Con, is that we've got Peacemaker coming out next month, we've got all of these. This is and it's supposed to be running a month after Superman event, so it's like you're cramming way too much, way too quick. Because I I want to fall in love with the character, and I felt like as much as I liked all the characters that were in there, I don't think we needed them. Like we didn't need. I personally feel like we didn't need actually, you know what? Pocket dimension I can live with, but we didn't need terrific, we didn't need the Justice Gang, uh, we didn't need the Hall of Justice being shown as well. Same thing with like I I would have liked more Daily Planet stuff.
Ofili:Yeah, more stuff of him being uh being Clark, like being a reporter. Yeah, I get that.
Kibz:So that I think there was there was far too much going on. As much as I enjoyed it, that's my flaw. It's just far too much going on.
Ofili:That's right. I I get that that overcrowded storyline. Steve, how do you feel?
Steve:I agree that there was a lot going on, but oh my, I would be lying to myself if I agreed that it didn't in Mr. Terry Stick. I feel like the Justice Gang, I think the story saw what needed them. Maybe you could have done with a bit of more introduction, like spend less time on Luther Corp. I feel like I know I know the company culture at Luther Corp a lot too much now. And I don't really know what the vibe is at like Justice Gang. So I feel like they were essential to the story, but I do agree with your point though. A lot of characters and a lot of names you know, maybe they don't even spend time on them, but it's a lot of names don't even. Yeah, and otherwise I said it's not like a franchise building film, it's a Superman film. You still have to you still have to accept that at the end of the day, they're kind of giving one is giving gun the helms to this DCU to the universe. And this film, like so many other future films and future like works, uh resting, even though no one's going to admit it. They're resting on this film. Yeah, that's right, yeah. On TV is doing more of a purpose than just for you to laugh at John Cena making a clown of it. You know what I mean? It's to increase anticipation for that. Supergirl making an appearance at the end of the day. It's to increase anticipation for that. So like I had to act I had to I I didn't like some of the choices, but I had to accept them because at the end of the day, that's right, yeah. This is not like the second or third installation in the film, you know what I mean? Like, that's right, that's right. We've had the snake already, but this is the big one. This is the flagship almost. That's right, yeah. That's right. When when stuff like that will happen, I'll be like Okay, I mean it's the price we have to pay, I guess. Um Clark. Um but what what what I would say uh that I didn't like, I felt like and I guess this also ties into your point. I felt like certain scenes um were dragged out or like extended while certain scenes were squished. And the tone on the tone and the pacing felt I wouldn't call it messy because it's gone. I know I feel like he's good at the basics, fundamental stuff like that. I just felt like he had a vision and there were certain scenes that he was trying to highlight, which I'm like, okay, I think I got the message in the first 30 seconds, but he's choosing to stick with it a bit more, and there's certain scenes where I would have liked to see just a tiny bit more there, and it felt like nope, it's one and done, and we're done with it. And so what's his name? Metamorpho. Right. Yes, met yeah, metamorphos. Yeah, yeah. I wish like with this kid and all, like in the f I wish we got maybe a tiny bit more backstory in that because that seems like a very, very significant event that happened in the film. Like if if we're not able to get over metamorph like with that Superman doesn't come out of that fucking universe, that 100% doesn't continue. So I feel like you know, but then the interaction with Lois, that's 12 minutes and dialogue, and I know every like a section of film theater loves that dialogue so much, but it's like, bro, did we really need to hear them talk with that?
Ofili:I'm not going to lie, I felt like I was shocked when I found out that that was 12 minutes. It felt like five, it felt like a quick fight, he lost within the first like 20 seconds. I agree.
Steve:And that's good. It doesn't feel like your own argument with your girlfriend. So, like, yeah, sure. But at the same time, it's even in the wake of the runtime, bro. So I'm just like I know what he was doing there.
Kibz:I know what he was doing there. He he was trying to establish their relationship and how it's gonna be moving forward as well, what we're gonna get in the next movies. We know their dynamic is gonna be, you know, back and forth.
Ofili:She challenges them. Yes, that's right.
Kibz:Yeah, that's right.
Ofili:I get that. Um, for me, I think I think I'm going to mix a bit of like Steve's point. Um, one of my things was it felt like the movie, it's like pendulum swings in the tone. Like we start off, it's a comedy, we go into a drama, it goes into like a sci-fi. Like we're going, we're we're swinging, and like there is no prep, there is no slow buildup. Like he gets out of like a really tense situation, he's cracking jokes. And I'm like, okay, I'm I'm struggling with the toe. Um, that's one. That third act was something for me. The CGI and the exposure. Oh my god. Oh my god. It's because he rips off the mask off of um uh Ultraman or something like that. Ultraman, Ultraman, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and he sees it's it's like his phase, and I'm like, oh my god, like this uh the CGI go killing me. I already have to deal with the pocket dimension and everything, but like, oh my god. So that was that was I didn't love that, but you know, I I think it'll take it, so it's not it's not bad.
Steve:It's still people who said that the the final act was exposition heavy. I I I do feel that way, but I guess I can see that.
Kibz:I can see that like I I I can see that as well, and and but like I always try and remind people that look you're you're watching a a fantasy here, like it's gonna be very hard, and sometimes and visual graphics, and I think I had this debate with somebody again with like uh with Ironheart, was that it's uh it's not meant to be a grounded story, guys. These are comic book stories, and they're adapting it onto the big screen. So CGI, where it has come to a point where it can look absolutely amazing, and sometimes it could look like the flash, uh which is a difficult thing for any creative to try and put their vision on the big screen, uh, but it does pull you away, like you know, me. I've always been like the I grew up in the 80s, so the 80s movies are dear to me, so physical props, like you know, I watched Labyrinth the other day with David Bowie and Jennifer Connolly, and I'm like, I love that movie, but it's the physicality of it, like people would say, Oh man, that looks so fake, it looks so fake. But I was like, but the physicalness of it I absolutely adore. Like they had Jim Henson and his team worked on all of these puppetries that were absolutely amazing, and like uh I know that there are certain directors that have that physicality to things, like I know James when he did the the flying scenes, it was you know David flying from the back, and they had these new LED panels that they used, so he's on a rig and he's flying. CGI is added to it after, which can displace any human eye and take you out of the story. And I think it's very I think because I'm an artist, I'll always try to back up my artist. But I know how difficult it is for me to even see that, be like, oh, that CGI kind of put me off, it threw me out of the story suddenly. But it's it's such a difficult when it comes to fantasy stuff, like I have to let go. There's gonna be mistakes, there's gonna be things that don't look 100% perfect, but yeah, visually it can throw any audience off when they see something like that. I mean, we got Jurassic Park, and I'm like, you know, when we saw Steven Spielberg's first one, you're like, oh my god, that's insane how good that is. Yeah, but then remember the lighting, they did all the uh like special effects at night always looks real. Now we're getting daytime visual effects, which is twice as hard to try and make it look realistic. So it's a tough one. I agree with you, but yeah, my artist side always is like I gotta be fair now.
Ofili:When I think about the technical aspect and how difficult it must be. Okay.
Kibz:So hard, bro. So hard. Even a 2D drawing.
Steve:Yeah, yeah. I have a question though. So did you guys feel that um the physicality or I guess powerness? Um, do you think Gunn depicted a strong Superman? Or he was more focused on his emotional, and his, you know, personality side of things?
Kibz:I'm I'm gonna go mid with that. He didn't show us his extreme. He he did mid. He did that on purpose though.
Steve:Okay.
Kibz:He did that on purpose. It's for us to connect.
Steve:Okay.
Kibz:It's for us to connect. Uh like when he was getting punched by Ultraman, I was like, why is he just sitting there? But he was using his brain at that time. So like I think what as much as I wanted him to, you know, do the the the beating of his lifetime, we wait, we won't get that till later. We won't get that till later. I mean, even though that's a big thing with the rift breaking through Metropolis, um I just feel like he still as a as a as a as a character, I think Clark and Catwell still holds back just to see I'm gonna see if I can save this person in some sort of way, even if I have to get hurt in the process.
Steve:Okay.
Ofili:Yeah, I definitely dumbed it down. Definitely agree with that. I think um I think the focus was much more about like it's kind of like Superman, like birthright, those comics where it's like you're really focused on humanizing Superman. I think it's I think that was what Gunn was really focused on. Um and making it seem like okay, yeah, he is because during that fight with Ultraman, I was like, why normally in any other show this is where we see him loosen the reins, he shows you that yeah, he can punch through your skull, you know, take you out very easy. No one has ever seen his full strength. And you know, he kind of depends on like um crypto. Yeah, crypto comes in and helps and pulls him, and that's how he beats him. And I don't think he's I don't think he kills him.
Steve:Um, but yeah, the the rift, yeah. Yeah, the blackout, yeah.
Ofili:Um you know how they you know him and Batman they do that thing. I don't kill people, but like I'll drop a car type thing. It's like I'm technically not the one that killed you, it was the floor in the car, yeah. Um but yeah, I think um I think this Superman wasn't too focused on like depicting that strength. Um Snyder, Jesus Christ, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Secondly, you know, we're wrong for crucifying him. He's basically Jesus Christ. It's like we're we're crucifying him, he's our savior. Man, the amount of Jesus imagery in that film hilarious, man.
Steve:Oh man. That's why I asked that question because again, I just watched mine of steel, and I'm like trying to compare both, you know, of them and to see who would be stronger. And I was coming up and I was coming to it being sniders, Superman. Oh no, well it's like Henry's killing him, bro.
Kibz:Henry's killing him.
Steve:But I was like, I feel like that comes out to in my head before I asked this. I I thought it was just because he was young. Like uh Gun Spa Gunn Superman is I think twenty. So it's younger, so I was thinking, okay, maybe Gun is trying to, you know, take a slow there and walk his way up to becoming this super powerful guy. But now I'm thinking maybe he just keeps it at this um like obviously we see we get to see him be stronger a little bit more and more, but keeps it at this level headed human and none of that slow ascending while other people are burning up in a fire behind you and you're just like watching them explode and do nothing, you know what I mean? Like I think we see a humanized version of or Clark, we just get to see Clark at the end.
Kibz:I guess that's yeah, it's too late. That scene always gets me. It's like, why? What happened, man? You just let everybody burn in that scene and you flew off as well. No explanation. You ran the scene, bro. You ran from the scene. Uh it's difficult because I feel like Zach couldn't explain his story in that, and like I feel like the studio had so much like because if you watch the extended cut of Batman being Superman, it doesn't make it a better film, but it gives more explanation. But it's like it's very difficult because I feel like what David Escoya was doing was trying to get to a point where he wrote the character growing into hope. Like a lot of mistakes are gonna be made in the first couple of movies, and then he grows into hope, but they didn't even get to that point where they were just throwing characters in, and here's the Justice League, and Josh Whedon had a go, and now Zach is back on it, which I really love the Justice League long version, the Zack Snyder version. Yeah, but it was like you didn't let me breathe with these characters. I think what the MCU did was let me fall in love with these characters, you know, over time, and then and that's for a reader as well. Anybody who's reading a book or a comic book that you're you're learning about the character as you grow into this adventure with them. We didn't get that with with with with Henry's. And I think Henry was an amazing looking superman, and I thought growing as Clark as well, we would have seen him more in the Daily Planet, but they they they they butchered that story so badly, and it's difficult. Like I feel for Zach as well, because I he had a different depiction of the character, and he wanted to try something different as well. But you know, the studios, studios, yeah.
Ofili:I think I think that's something techy about like the era we live in as well. Like we're we're now talking, like nowadays, the conversations we're talking about how much did they break even, we're talking about how much they brought in first week. I feel like when Iron Man first came out, nobody was talking about box office numbers. No, nobody, nobody. So back then it feels like they had room to fail and push another movie. Because honestly, the things I could say about Iron Man 3 would get me banned. They would get me banned, man.
Steve:Excuse me.
Kibz:Oh my god. Oh, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible. I just don't know what happened. Wait, that's when I you know I found out later on that the studio was uh meddling with decision makings with the director. I think that's why John Fabino didn't jump in to the other movies after because it was like the studios, and then he became producer as well, and then everybody's like got their own agendas now because this is a money-making machine now. Yeah, so how do we capitalise? Because like for me, and just jumping off the DC stuff for a moment, like the best film we got from like the MCU for me personally was Captain America Winter Soldier. Like, that's the most unique story that we've ever had. I love that movie.
Steve:We've been having arguments about that for the past week, man. Oof. I was like, please go see Civil War, please go see Civil War. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Kibz:I I I enjoyed Civil War, but as a an espionage sort of different take to the MCU and character building, I thought Winter Soldier was like amazing. I mean Infinity War is a great film, I feel like that's Thanos' movie. But we haven't had any risk taken to do movies like that again. We've had the generic kind of formula movies, and I feel like with Superman, it wasn't the generic super, it wasn't like the generic here's the origin, here's the issue, here's the ending. They kind of threw us into something where Superman's already been around for three years, they were saying. So we're gonna see him on his learning curve. So I feel like it's a it's a better way to start something off like that, instead of like it's I know Marvel have struggled with their phase four. I don't know where they're heading with the next, but I'm gonna enjoy it. Right regardless, I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm a geek, I'm gonna love it. Yeah, but it is very difficult on the decisions they're making on what sort of characters do they introduce and how do you make me feel for these characters? Because like, even with the Justice Gang, even though they didn't have much time to shine, like Nathan Fillion as Guy Gardner was like perfect casting.
Ofili:Oh my god.
Kibz:The fact they gave him the bow haircut, yeah, I was like, What? This is insane. Um but even with Mr. Terrific as well, like you know, you get an amazing actor like Eddie who who jumps into this role, and I was really scared because he's like Reed Richards in the in the DCU. Yeah, yeah. He is like the smartest guy in the DC universe. How do you portray him, and how do you know what sort of characteristics do you give him? And Eddie did his research, he read the comic books, man, and he gave me the terrific RC. I still would have liked a bit more weight on, but that's just me. I'm a visual guy. He portrayed the character so well, and I was scared about what they would do with the T as well. Yeah, but they did amazing, like he did amazing as well. He he brought the sarcasm to the character as well, and his sparks to it as well. Uh, and he did that with most of the characters in there, but I like you know, I wanted more. That's the problem. You put these characters in there, you want more.
Steve:Yeah, that's true. That's true. This random I just remembered, um, for a character that has a pretty staring stoic face and very dull um delivery. The funniest or the most the biggest laugh that came out of my cinema was when he opened his garage and it was going so small. You can't, you know what I mean.
Ofili:So it was just very ironic that that was what got my my audience the most I think also I think because of like the context is you're you're like top three smartest people in the world. You can't you can't fix your garage.
Steve:Yeah, yeah.
Ofili:Yeah, so that was that was hilarious. Um definitely agree that I kind of expected like slightly more physical presence because he is a um he is an Olympian. I think he's a two-time Olympian based off his comics, yeah. Um then yeah, yeah, that's that's really it. Um to I guess like to round us up, what would you guys think would be like a hero you want to see and maybe the next Superman or the next DC thing? I know we have projects announced, but who do you want to see next displayed from like comics or the DC universe in this new gun universe?
Kibz:So we've got the project with Aaron Perry coming out, uh, lanterns. Uh I've been waiting for Jon Stewart to come on the big screen for a little while. Uh I'm a big Green Lantern fan, but Jon Stewart, man, he's a character that I've always loved from when I first started reading him in the characters. Uh so I'm interested to see where they go with this character. I know it's gonna be a TV show. Uh John is so deep, bro. John is such a deep character. Oh my god, like such a deep character. I've just finished a run with Jon Stewart at the moment now, and like, you know, again, I'm I'm big on like men's mental health. And as a Green Lantern in this story, he looks after his mother who suffers dementia. Um it's from the New 52 run. Uh, but only a friend uh said to me, Kibbs, read it. I I think this will like resonate with you really well. Now his mother suffers dementia, he looks after another quadrant out in space somewhere, uh, but he needs to look after his mother at the same time as well. So he they've they've grounded it to a point where he was like, I need to be there for my mum. I can't be always going on these space missions because my mum suffers dementia, somebody needs to look after her. Now he had lost his younger sister in this story, so to look after his younger mother, this is how powerful he is as a Green Lantern as well. He creates a construct from the ring of his sister to look after his mum while he goes out and battles in his different codes, but the mental health strain of battling in space and trying to keep the construct in Earth alive is insane. It's like that is crazy. And the the book goes in much more deeper on like how much coming from a single parent background and how much his mother cared for him and how much love he has for her as well, and the loss of uh uh of a sibling as well.
Steve:To create a construct of that You're you're essentially reliving that is that is actually like mind-blowing to think of, even you know. Yeah, like when I read that story physically, you're not even like around, you're over there fighting battles, you know what I mean?
Kibz:It's it's it's it's a really heartfelt story. It shows the the not just the power of the lanterns and the ring, but the power of human will as well, and the love that it the love that he carries for his family, uh, and that's like the mental health aspects of reconstructing his his lost sibling, man. Like I'm so close to my family to even think about that. Uh, but the story related to me a lot more because my my father had lost his younger sister as well at a young age, and it hit it hit home, and the conversation I had with my dad after was like, you know, that must have been hell for you. That must have been hell for you because the the story behind it was uh my granddad came here after the second world war, after he served in the army, and he had retired to go back home in the 60s to Bangladesh. Uh and my grandma was supposed to go back with him, but she took another flight. Uh she she basically my my my auntie uh got caught on fire and she had passed away. But in the process, because in in the Muslim religion, we have to bury our uh our dead like really quickly. Uh my grandma was stuck in Pakistan at the time with flight delay, so she couldn't bury her own daughter. My my dad couldn't get to see her in time, but in a way it was a blessing in disguise because we wouldn't have to see they wouldn't have to see the horrific scenes that my granddad had to see. Um so the story really hit home for me and it opened up a conversation of like you know, grieving process and and and what he had gone through as a character to make me ask questions to my dad about like you know what it has been like over the past 40 years because I never got to meet her. So it was like you know, what's that like? And you carry a mental image in your mind of that person regardless, and you know, the story kind of just worked. And I'm hoping to see what John carries in this TV series, so it's gonna be. I know I got deep, but it was gonna be John because I love John, man. John is such a I think uh as part of the Justice League and uh as a part of the DC universe, he's such a key character in the Justice League, let alone just as a Green Lantern by himself. I think he's uh he's he's he's the embodiment of what you know kind of like a a strong man is yeah mentally, physically, and the power of the ring as well. So like yeah, Jon Stewart for me. I mean I just want him to be justice on the big screen.
Steve:I just feel like yes, obviously excited, always excited for a green eyes and film, but they've also struggled with that character.
Ofili:That's true.
Steve:So hopefully, like you know, it comes it comes together, but I don't I wouldn't say I have high very high expectations. Um there. But I'm ex like all that you've just you've just shared that's really like I could see why you would want to see that. Like you must you connect to it a lot more than I do. So I guess definitely, definitely. Um I think for me I heard that there may be a Bane film. I know there's more for Batman. There's more for Batman, but um in the DC universe I heard there may be a Bane film in development. And I was one of those guys that I was like the one or ten percent of the universe that liked to whatever Tom whatever Tom Hardy was doing in those films, and so it made me um you know, grow fond of the Bane character, and I'm willing to see like a backstory because he has a pretty, pretty intense, like insane backstory as well. So I would like to see that. I don't know what route they're going to take in this gun universe. If most of these films are gonna be thrown into action or if we're going to get an origin story in some cases.
Kibz:Um I think we will. I think we will. I think clay facy we're gonna get an origin story. Yeah, no, it's a character that turns so we're gonna I think he will with some of the characters because he's so good with uh I would say the B-list characters that don't really get shot. Yeah, because you know nobody knew who the Guardians of the Galaxy was. And even to this day, like even with Mr. Terrific and some of the Justice, nobody knew that Guy Gardner was the original Green Lantern of Earth. So like he's opening up a new doors, and I feel like he's gonna do that with some of these characters. So I hope we get a good one because I loved what Tom Hardy did with Bain.
Steve:I did the research he did so good. Yes, exactly.
Ofili:I think for me, just to I guess finish this off, yeah. I don't I I think I want a cameo, just a really, really good cameo, because I feel like they're going to need to sync the budget of a movie into that cameo for Martian Manhunter. That's what I need. Ooh. I need a really good Martian Manhunter cameo. Yes, definitely.
Kibz:John Jones, we need him, we need him, we need him.
Steve:Who's filmed?
Ofili:Might have to be a super Superman movie. I think the the net maybe he could be in lookout with Supergirl. Um I don't know.
Steve:If he was making a cameo, then it would be Justice, like Justice League, right?
Ofili:I think I'm at least logically, but I feel like like Kibs are saying, give us a little bit of time to look forward to these characters, like intro them in something else, then we we have a full-fledged movie that has them. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, exactly. Okay, yeah. So yeah, kids, this was a blast. Thank you for doing it. No, thank you guys.
Kibz:Honestly, honestly, absolute pleasure. It's great to meet you guys as well. So, yeah, absolutely.
Steve:Yeah, thanks for hopping on. Great to have you.
Ofili:Thanks for hopping on. We love listening to the pod.
Kibz:Yeah, no, thank you so much. Thank you so much. That's awesome.
Ofili:All right, man. All right, guys. This has been another episode of this Cinephiles Hour focusing on Superman. Uh, the next episode, oof, we might do I I feel like we have to talk about Fantastic Four next up.
Steve:I think so. Yeah. I think we just gotta keep the superhero stuff going. Yeah.
Ofili:That's that's it. Okay, guys. Hope you guys have a great day. Signing off.
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