Episode 34: "MY FATHER'S SHADOW" feat. Ese & TMT

Steve (one-half of TCA) taps on TMT, co-host of SubmaRoach, and Ese, PM at Fatherland, to discuss all things MY FATHER'S SHADOW. Both making their TCA Debuts, we start off with learning more about their creative journey so far before shifting gears into Nigeria's first official selection at the Cannes Film Festival by the Davies Brothers. What exactly does June 12, 1993 mean to the nation? Is the character Folarin dead or alive? What was the reasoning behind including the Abike plotline? Dive into this episode  (our best yet) to get your answers and more in this TCA must-watch!

Transcript

Steve 0:01

The memories that pain you when someone leaves are the same ones that will comfort you later. These are the words Folarin, played by the wondrous Sope Durisu, says to his 11-year-old son, Olaremi, in MY FATHER'S SHADOW. Except when he says those words, you can't help but feel this is Wally and Akinola Davies Jr. speaking to their dad, their family, and really anyone who's lost a loved one. In this reimagination of Nigeria's first "free and fair election", told through the eyes of two pre-pubescent brothers who only want one thing: to spend some time with their father. Joined with me in the studio today to cover feature debut film from Akinola Davies Jr. We have TMT, host of Submarine and A Roach, Nigeria's number one comedy podcast, making his TCA debut. And we have Ese, production manager at Fatherland Productions and production coordinator for this film. Let's start with you, Ese. How's it going? How are you doing? What have you been watching?

Ese 1:05

Doing good. I haven't been watching anything, honestly, because I'm prepping to shoot something. And when that happens, like I'm like, I can't really. My instinct is not to like ingest any other content when I'm preparing, even like in when I'm in production mode, not even in directing mode, is not really to like ingest anything. I think I'm like sort of like mindlessly watching Bones, the like I don't even know when it was from, but just like when you have like some dead time, it's like, oh let me just have this playing in the background, but I'm not watching anything right now. I'm thinking about Interview with The Vampire a lot because I think it's coming out this summer. The new season coming out this summer. But yeah, that's about that.

Steve 1:45

Okay. Uh TMT, how are you doing? Um, pretty good. How are you? Thank you. Thank you for asking. Bro, no one will ask you that, really. When you're doing this P every time guests, you just they see how they're doing, and that's it. Like I'm a person too. I have feelings.

TMT 2:00

No, you do, you do.

Steve 2:01

Thank you. Thank you. What are you watching?

TMT 2:04

Um, so I've been reading, I've been reading Clive Cussler, which is horrible, but it's like super um it's it's like super dense, like adventure bullshit, which is essentially like adventure stuff is like basically white men going to like less developed societies and stealing their art. So it's kind of influenced what I'm watching, which is Indiana Jones. Oh and like the mummy and stuff like that, which those movies are really fun, but they're also really like these are horrible people. They just have like it's just like it's film and it's like it's fun to watch, it's romantic, it's swashbuckling, and they wear a lot of khaki, which is like fun to see, and yeah, it's like yeah, that's pretty much it.

Steve 2:50

And I think Harrison Ford is kind of likable. I don't know how or why, because he in a vacuum he looks like an evil person, I can't lie. But for some reason, I can't not even in shrinking. I don't know if you guys watch Shrinking. In Shrinking, where he's meant to be an asshole and kind of a dickhead, and like he's probably my favorite character, honestly.

TMT 3:11

So, yeah, Harrison Ford has like you know when like I can imagine Harrison Ford was like just a really evil person in his past life, and then they brought him to they brought him to this life, but he was raised by wonderful people, and he's just like, I guess I'm a wonderful person now, because there's a scene, there's a scene in Temple of Doom, yeah, which is maybe the last good um is that the one after Raiders? I think it's the one after Raiders, yeah. So yeah, it's it's not as good as Raiders, obviously, but there's a scene where he's like hallucinating and like mind controlled, and like they put this red light on him to highlight that like, oh yeah, he's kind of evil now, and he's terrified. He's okay, it's it's it's it's really bad.

Steve 3:58

I can imagine, yeah. I can imagine. I need to get back into those those films, you know. Yeah, like the pulpy, and yeah, yeah, yeah.

TMT 4:06

And they're all set, and the thing is like they get away with their evil because they make all the bad guys Nazis, and it's like, yeah, we're doing this awful thing, but they are Nazis, yes.

Steve 4:19

So it's worse, yeah. Um, but starting with you, since you know you have that going on. Uh TMT, you wear many hats, you're a podcast on Subma Roach, uh Problem Man, the Dirty Live Podcast, and then you're also a guest on a bunch of podcasts, you know, Popcorn for Dinner, which we did together. Um, I think you were a guest in Is This Seat Taken as well? Yeah. Yeah, you do some creative work. So, how is it like life coach, life coach? Yeah, sorry, real. You know one thing about people that are life coaches is like how you life coach when we we're doing this the first time. This is our first girl around it.

TMT 4:54

I don't think, like I said about Indiana Jones, I don't think it's the first time for some people. Oh, past that progression. And I think increasingly people are getting worse at letting at not letting other people know that this isn't their first time here. You know what I mean? So like I feel like if you come back and you're living life, you are mass wealth, you're kind of you're better at investing and things, but you're not supposed to tell anyone. And I think when you tell someone, you have to like crash in a plane, like JFK style, like you know, like just like odd, like no, not JFK, sorry, JFK Jr. You know when like people die flying, so it's like unexplained death, that's how you go. And I feel like people are edging it now where they're doing it, and it's like you've been here before, yeah.

Steve 5:48

How is it like balancing out of that? And is that something that you're currently working on?

TMT 5:53

Um, balancing, I don't balance it well. I think anyone that's like, oh, you have it all you do. No, they just they something is suffering, but what I do is I just I phase out my life. So there are periods where things suffer more, and there are periods where I'm like, I'm not working for like three months. Oh, okay. Yeah. So um, what am I working on? Right now I film actually. We Oh Yeah, we're about to enter, we we're in pre-production, we're about to enter actual production. Um we found we found most of our money, and the rest we'll find while we film because we're really, really bullish on having a strong marketing budget. Um I can't really talk about it, obviously, but it's like it's of course. So it's that length or short film. Feature length, feature length. Yeah, because I've done I've done short stuff and it's really good. Yeah, and um it's fun, it's hard, yeah. But like I needed to do shorts to like let me know it to help me know if I wanted to, because filmmaking is really hard. I don't know how people do it. I say awesome land, well done, because I I just this is this will be my last one, so the one after it.

Steve 7:08

Yeah, that's uh guess we can flip it to Ese then, you know, Fatherland. So, what's that like, you know, production manager? And since the movie's release, has life been, you know, like busier onto the next one, keep it pushing, or have you kind of been on a much deserved victory lap and like relaxing and stuff?

Ese 7:28

Well, you know what they say, the reward for good work is more work.

Steve 7:31

More work. God damn.

Ese 7:33

More work. So I think we've seen that like it's sort of opened doors of interest. There's lots of people who've been curious about I think the Nigerian film industry who sort of see us and it's like, oh, what are you guys doing? Um, on one end. But there's also for us and our own ambitions in terms of the other stories that we want to tell and the other filmmakers and artists that we want to support. And so it's been figuring out um how we bring all of those to life, honestly. So, like even if we're not in production, there's always like something in the pipeline or something that we're trying to get off the ground.

Steve 8:07

Yeah, that's yo, that's that's really cool. I've always wondered what the what that space was like in Nigeria because because I left at a younger age, like everything I know about film has been through the lens of Hollywood, you know? And I think this is the first film that we're covering that's not like that's a Nigerian film. And it's crazy because we're a Nigerian podcast. So it's like I've always been very intrigued by, and obviously not your no offense to these films, but your Wedding Party and Christmas in Lagos. No, not that. Like it makes me happy to see something like this exist and something like watching something like this in foreign cinema in a packed cinema with you know different people. I'm just I've just always been curious how that spaces, but you know, we have key people hands, TMT and Ese, making more films like that. Happy to hear, happy to hear. Do you guys do either of you have siblings? I have one sister.

Ese 9:00

I have one sister.

TMT 9:02

Older or younger?

Steve 9:03

Younger.

Ese 9:04

My sister.

Steve 9:06

Oh, okay. So you guys would be the tech, I guess, in the situation. And I'm asking that because watching this film, watching this film and listening, because I saw it at TIFF where tech and Akinola were both there and watching them talk, obviously, like they're both creatives, but I felt like Akinola has had the privilege of being a bit sheltered and a bit protected, which is not a bad thing. I think it's allowed him to chase his dreams and live a bit more freely. You know what I mean? And I think I saw some of that reflected in the sibling dynamic in the sense that Akin was kind of protected, you know, and you know, you're both creative. So I was just wondering if, you know, some of like some sort of that sibling relationship played a role in like your career path or your choices that you made. I don't know. Let's say please.

Ese 9:55

I don't know that it is. I feel like my sister is, I feel like my sister is like the braver, more audacious one. And I think like there's like some similarity there to like Remi and Akin, where like Remi is the more like mature and he will like assess his situation and figure out how to approach it, whereas Akin is sort of like off the cuff and will say whatever is on his mind to his parents, the whoever is outside who doesn't really care. And I feel like my sister is the same way. Whereas like if something happens, I might text her about something, she'll just be in the family group chat. Like, why did you do this thing?

Steve 10:28

That's crazy.

Ese 10:32

So yeah, I think um, yeah, I don't know that like I've necessarily like sheltered her. I feel like I've made decisions that have uh made it easier for her to like get away with more tomfoolery.

Steve 10:48

Um okay, okay, okay.

Ese 10:50

But other than that, nah, I think like I'm yeah, she's no, she's leading the way, and I'm happy to follow.

Steve 10:58

That's cool. You don't hear a big sibling say that, but that's cool.

TMT 11:04

TNT. Um yeah, I mean, I just I feel like my sister, because it's a boy and a girl, there's less um, it's kind of like having two firstborns in a sense. Yeah, so yeah, and we're we're we're three years apart, so we've we've never been too far. But the main thing is that like I don't think she's ever been sheltered because also I think when you're a when you're a woman, kind of you you just grow up faster, you kind of see the world for what it is. Yeah, so with I think with two boys, there's a tendency for one of them to be more grounded in reality. That's true. And less shelter and less, you know, less sheltered than the other. But with both of us, it was more, it's just two people kind of learning life. And my thing growing up was always my parents were I don't want to say strict. They weren't strict, but they were very you do this, then you do this, then you go to law school, then you go to this, and that and it didn't make me rebel. I've never been particularly rebellious, but I've always been a I've always been a person who does what they want. So I've never done like any sort of open rebellion, but if my dad is like, you're doing this this summer, I'll be like, okay, then I'll just do what I want. Actually, when summer comes, I just do what I want. And I've always been more comfortable saying, I don't I don't get confrontational with my parents, I just do what I want, and then I say, Oh, sorry, I'm sorry. So now, even when they're like giving me orders or telling me stuff, they say it and I feel like they don't even believe themselves anymore because they know I'm good for what I want. Um, whereas my sister, she's really good at sticking up for herself. If she's not doing anything, she's telling you, like, yo, I'm not doing anything, I'm not TMT, I'm not living a lie with you guys. I'm just gonna do what I want, and she'll do what she wants. Yeah. Um, so yes, that's kind of a dynamic.

Steve 13:06

Yeah, I'm the first of four boys. Four boys is crazy to just, yeah, I know. But my mom tried, my mom really shout out that woman for real. But I'm the first of four boys, so I've never had a choice really. Like, it's sort of like you said, like my dad is to tell me I'm doing this this summer, except I would do I had to do that, bro. Like, I didn't even I didn't know I could rebel until maybe junior year of college, even. And yeah, and it's so fascinating when I see my brothers, like my little siblings now, like one of them does music. And if I thought to even do music when I was a child, like I thought my dad would actually like hurt me or maybe even like just end me there, like call me off completely. But like he just does music and it's no one says anything, you know. I'm like, how'd that happen? How'd that work? But yeah, I think back to Remi and Akin for a bit, like I think Remi was obviously, and it was just three years between them, like, but Remi was very more mature. Like, I would think like he was, you know, the second second parent, I guess, to an extent to Akin. And when I watched tech and I can only talk about this, it was very much, you know, I could see that I could see he's had to be the more mature one, he's had to be the one protecting him, he's had to be the one carrying some of some of the you know pain, I guess, more. And he cried at the premiere when he was talking about the film, and I could just see the pain on there. And this meant like so much. I mean, obviously it means a lot to Akinola as well, but it meant so much to him. It was very heavy for him. And I just thought, wow, like, yeah. The kids did a great job in that in that role, man. Fantastic. And this is your first, granted, I think your mom is an I think your mom is an actor and scriptwriter.

Ese 14:50

Yeah, she's a screenwriter and actress, yeah.

Steve 14:52

Yeah, but like this is your first role. I bro, blew me away. Blew me away, really, really. But as two people, um, you currently live in Nigeria, that's that's right, right? Yeah, how do you feel like the film captured the mundane aspect of like living in Lagos? So like the everyday part of Nigerian life, because I feel there's a couple scenes in restaurants, like there's one at the Palm One John and one in that restaurant where they run into the aunt, and there's scenes where they're just sitting at the beach and you know, just walking around taking the bus. So, how do you feel like the film does in that regard? Like just the mundanity of it all?

Ese 15:28

I'll let you go first, TMT.

TMT 15:30

I think beyond the restaurant scenes and just like, you know, the slice of life stuff, I think my favorite representation of Lagos is like um stuff not working, in the sense that like, you know, he goes to the it's like a factory, right? To get his backpack and they're like, yeah, he's not here yet. So that's that. And he's like, you know, and it's very Lagos. Like Lagos is very like, oh, this thing is this thing that you banked on for weeks or months due to no fault of yours, isn't happening today, and there's no consequence for anyone except you. And what are you going to do about it? Not come back another day. You know, that's like those are your options. It's either you wait or you call someone who is like important, but if you don't have access to someone important, then you wait, go back another day, you figure something else out. That's crazy. And I think um being a dad and being in that position, and still like your first instinct is to like, okay, this thing that I banked on isn't happening, so we're going to do something else, and I'm going to like try and not expose you to it, is a it's a very noble, like, it's a very Nigerian parent thing because I yeah, I I just I growing up, I just saw my parents like, hey, life is good, and I'm just like, okay, life is good. But then I'd hear like my grand my great grandma who was in the house, she was like, she just she raised my sister in life, and she'd be like, hey man, listen, life is like life isn't that good. And I'd be like, oh, what? And she couldn't she couldn't speak English, so she would only speak pigeon and and and Yoruba, those were her two languages, and she would tell me, and that was how I learned pidgin, pidgin, just like talking to her. And I was just like, okay, so life, no good, right? It was just very like an odd way to learn how things weren't always working all the time. But then down the line, everything would like kind of figure itself out. My parents are like super smart, hardworking people, and they made good lives for themselves and for my sister and I. So it was just that, like, because even just living in Lagos, you kind of experienced lots of pockets of those things. And it's like, I don't want to say it's nice to know, but it's kind of comforting to know that like even in the 90s, there's this tendency to sort of, oh, we used to be a country, oh, the golden age of Nigeria. But it's like nice to know that like things weren't like they just weren't working for them as well. So that was like that was a big part of the film.

Steve 18:12

Yeah, wait, before you respond, I say I actually didn't think about like that aspect, but now that you say, you know, things not working, I've I don't watch wait, I don't watch enough Nigerian films, but when they go to the place with like the security guy changes over the um changeover box, I'm like, whoa, I can't remember the last time I saw that in a film, actually, like just no power and them having to switch changeover, you know. Like that was I I clocked that in my head. And then when the bus broke down and they came down, and they're like, what's happening? It's like no fuel. Okay, what do we now do? And everyone just starts walking. I'm like, yeah, that's that that can happen. That's not something that's so far-fetched, and like that can and will happen, or you know, what you've just said. So yeah, but what about you, essay? What do you think about the mundane aspects of the film?

Ese 18:59

It goes back to the the thing that made me fall in love with film in the first place, that idea of being seen. And like when you you can be very it's very easy for us as people to be very in our heads, and when you see things that feel like, like you said, mundane, um, like on the big screen, and that's it's like, oh, like you realize that you were like a bunch of people, understand these things. And so it's like simple things like the the preacher on like the bridge and how familiar it is. So just have people like shouting down megaphones on a random day, like preaching the seller in the market. I used to go to like Ijebu as a kid, um, because that's where my mom's um dad is from, and my cousins and I will take, and there would be like just random people doing, but it's those things that feel like they're tapping into like things that feel very personal but quiet moments from like the way we've lived our lives, seeing that like realizing that like this is actually a more communal experience than you some it is. I think is like so profound, and even going back to what TMT said about like Nigeria not working, there's also this thing about the film that's like everything changes, but everything stays the same. There's so many parallels you can make with what's happening in the film and how we feel about Nigeria now, and then even just like the mundanities of life and things in like 1993 echoing things that we were we are experiencing now. It's like yeah, it's it's I think it's like really profound and beautiful storytelling. Yeah.

Steve 20:29

That's a perfect segue to my next question. One thing that I liked was they made a point of showing the SDP slogan on the wall on the Flyers, which was Hope '93, which in 2023, he who must not be named, our personal Voldemort, his APC slogan was Renewed Hope '23. I was going with, I guess, TMT as our cultural custodian, but you know, also Ese. Is this so why do you make that face? Are you the cultural custodian?

TMT 20:59

Sorry, I just yeah, go on.

Steve 21:01

Does this film feel politically relevant to you?

TMT 21:04

And I'm asking that only because it's because I was because I was there when it when it happened. Are you calling me old?

Steve 21:13

Just it's a very personal story, right? This is the most personal of theories. I think grief is probably the most complex emotion that we experience. So it's a very personal theory. But you see backdrops like that, and what you've just said about you know, many years later things feel like they haven't really changed. So, like, does this one feel politically relevant? Would you say it has cultural capital or it's like it's lacking in that regard?

TMT 21:36

Um, I think Nigeria has an extreme, extreme archive problem. Like, we are really bad at documenting um some of the most pivotal parts of our history, some of the most decisive um points, you know. Uh what's that thing in um in the MCU for like canon moments? I've forgotten what it's called. Um oh the time something like where they keep I forget what it's like it's it's basically like our inflection points, basically like the most important yeah, so stuff like that. We've never really been good at it. That's why like when guys like Fu'ad make um create companies like archivi.ng and their whole mission is to sort of record or get the records and have everything, you know. I I find it really important, and I find this film extremely important. I don't think it trivializes it, and I think the best way to tell a story is I think attempting to tell the entire story of June 12th is insane. Yeah, it's it's it's very ambitious, but telling it from the POV of a family is so masterful, it's brilliant, and you know, I I think capturing the amount of tension, you know, I always talk about like with that film the grade, the the color grading is so cool, but like capturing all that tension, you know, but also the but life goes on that happens in Nigeria when these things are happening, when like people are like, Oh man, you shouldn't go out right now because you know the soldiers are out and this and this. I have to work. I'm raising a family of four boys, they eat anyhow. I have to work. You know, I think there's something really beautiful about capturing that, and you capture it with like you know, the high moments where they go to the beach and they and then you capture it with the like low moments where there's the you know the tension point with the soldiers um in the third act of the film. So being able to tell that story that way, and it's these three characters, and you know, it's it's telling like everything else that's happening in their lives at this point, but it also happens to be on this very, very important day. Yeah. It's superb, it's superb storytelling, and it's also a film that doesn't it doesn't have a MacGuffin, which is just that's how you know how you know how much time they spend with the script, you know, because there's I think a big part of Nigerian cinema and really cinema in general now because the slop on Netflix, we need to talk about that one day, but like a big part of it is yeah, we need to go from here to here to get this. And I I listen, I'm watching these Indiana Jones films and I just see them everywhere. It's like we need to get the thing for the thing to get the key, and then we fly to Peru, and it's like, okay, just relax, relax.

Steve 24:56

Yeah, yeah.

TMT 24:57

So in a film where like, you know, it's just like we're going to we're going to the beach, we're doing this, and the whole point of this film is killing time. Not the whole point of the film, but like the whole um the the linear narrative is trying to kill time, you know, because he's we we're waiting for things and it's it's amazing. It's yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, the we're we're we're trying we're we're not trying to we're not trying to like get a thing to do a thing to no, we're just trying to like time has to go by. Yeah, sometimes the best way to go through life is to just go through it. You know what I mean? Yeah, so that's this essay.

Ese 25:40

I think like interestingly, the thing I think about is that it's not even necessarily trying to kill time, they're trying to hold on to time. I think when you start getting into like the magical realism aspects of the story, it feels more like Folarin is trying to buy time with his boy, and that the boys are trying to like buy time with their father. And I think that's really like the core of the film. Like as we sort of like can be a back and forth as to like, is this a father's and a son story, or is it a political story? But like you don't the political story doesn't carry as much weight without like the humanity that this father and his sons give it. So like the the choice to like really like tell this story about an important moment in Nigerian history through this very, very, very personal lens and perspective is the thing that like is the reason you're crying at the end, right? Like you're crying for Folarin, you're crying for Nigeria, like all of it like becomes like it's like these two things that are sort of happening parallel to each other and like slowly, slowly, slowly like crash into each other by the time you get to the bar scene and in the um scene with the car and the soldiers, and then by the end you've seen that these two have sort of like merged into each other, and that's like the way they approach it, those two like sort of things converging is like beautiful and really like helps you settle into that notion of like how much we lose personally and politically navigating this country of ours.

Steve 27:15

Yeah, country of ours. I think for me, the first time I watched it, and I don't know why this was my takeaway, but I kind of took away that June 12th in the backdrop only served as like a plot vehicle, right? Like I was I was feeling like I could if you set this film about another day where something was happening in the country, it would be the same film. But I re-watched it in preparation for this podcast, and I was very wrong. I think if you set this film on any other day, it's a different story. I don't know exactly how it changes, I don't know exactly what you know, part like what changes, but the last act is kind of like you said, like it's where it all ties in and merges in together. The last act for me, there's a montage of cars burning, people shooting, news, like chaos happening. And I think that's when it becomes very, very emotional. It starts to become very emotional for me. And that just like I can all that doesn't drop the I don't know, the the tone from there. It's like he keeps it from there up until the very last shot, right? The whole father I will say you in my dreams. It's just it's it's heavy, either in a chaotic way, in a dramatic way, in an emotional way, but it's just very heavy. And I think if you set this film on some other day, like the thing that creates that tension is going to be something different. But yeah, I think it's they're in in tandem in parallel, but they're also working together. And like you said when you started TMT, like to set to try to retell June 12th on its own, like just tell that day on its own is very crazy. They teach us in school that, you know, and that's why I did the quotes. They teach us in school that this was the day that we had our first free and fair election and stuff like that, but they don't really tell you much about it. Like I know they in my social studies class or my civic education class, I don't know anything that happened on that day. And unfortunately, I'm not going to know anything other than what one person in power decided this is going to be the national narrative that we're going to push out, and this is what everyone has to know. And that's it. All I know is we used to celebrate that day as MKO Abiola day, and then somebody like it's just yeah, it's ambitious, but I think they do a very good job of it through this lens that they've chosen. Yeah, my interpretation my interpretation of it all was just two boys wanting to spend more time with their dad, you know, just spent some time with him and yeah, yeah.

TMT 29:34

I mean, I think beyond really masterful storytelling, again, like there's a reason that these guys these guys have you know kind of killed history in Nigerian schools and the curriculum and stuff like that. So yeah, they've killed history in education, in the educational structure and system. It's just not really a thing. Some schools try to, you know, keep it there and just have history as a side that you can learn. But largely it's just something that like most schools don't teach, public and private. Um, because Nigerian is very just educationally, we've always been very functional and vocational. So it's like, oh, you do this, you do this, why takes this, and then you get into this going here. So um that's kind of killed history. But when you have films like this that are like very character-driven and also highlight moments that for a lot of people just don't know about this, these things. And those is crazy, but there's a there was a civil war that happened in Nigeria, and I just didn't know about it, so like I was leaving secondary school. Someone just mentioned it to me, and I was like, wait, what? Yeah, I had to literally go online, click, click, and I was like, wait, what? And then I ordered a book, read up, and it's like I think things like this, and it's funny, with the civil war that happened, like a lot of the girls I knew in school knew about it because they had read half of the yellow sun.

Steve 31:11

Bro, mm-hmm. Yeah.

TMT 31:14

And I never read Half Of A Yellow Sun because like all I read in high schools, Lord of the Rings, and maybe Harry Potter, like I was very, I was very much a fantasy nerd. And I was just like, yeah, I'm not reading anything with love or you know, heartbreaker. And that was when I was like, okay, okay, let's need to, we need to reevaluate how we're the information we're taking in and how we're taking it in and stuff like that. So I think movies like this are extremely important because not they don't just tell you um about the events, but they also show you like the personal stake, like what people are losing when countries don't work and stuff like that.

Ese 31:50

And it was crazy even for us to realize like as we were shooting it, people like onset, like didn't like know the full context and didn't like understand. And like, yeah, yes, like the younger like Gen Z people, but even people who are like a little like older, like just didn't have like the full context. It's like, oh, it's a democracy day. And it's like, no, babes, like it's the whole thing. Um yeah, and we ended up doing this like short documentary after called Stories from June 12, where we invited like a bunch of like um children to talk to their parents about their experiences on June 12. And like the stories you were hearing of people from like different like backgrounds, different classes and stuff of like people hearing for the first time their mother talking about like, yeah, we had to hide in like the bush for like hours before we could go home because they were like, or like people talking about like someone talking about how like he was on the way to his hostel to the hospital to see his wife, and like hearing that and the Ayo Li jadu actually, who plays Baba in the film, specifically talked about like his own experience and like having a child at the same time at a time where you had you had hope in the future of your country and it feeling like that hope disappeared. And even Funmbi's dad, Fuumbi's talking about like that was the first time she remembers seeing her dad cry. Like coming home and seeing that announcement being made. Like people like really like started to it felt like it started an intergenerational conversation about like help me understand this thing, because again, we're not taught it, and so we now understand not just on like a political level, but on a personal level, what it how like our parents feel, and like it puts into context how they've reacted to things in like more recent times and why like they were like, sure, best of luck, but like we all know how this goes type of thing. Because you see, and you okay, you I understand now, whereas we may have looked at them and been like, oh, you guys are just another about it, you don't care about this country, you don't want to be better, you like share like their real personal experiences and you understand why they might be a little jaded.

Steve 34:01

Yeah. What you've just said is so true because when 'Toll Gate' happened, 2020, I was obviously here, it was during COVID, but I called my dad and I was like, I think I had a lot of um like anger for him because you know he told the estate guy to lock the gate, told no one to go out, no one to join the protest or whatever. And it's like we're not like he basically, in his own words, if I was to translate, he basically said he doesn't give a fuck whatever happens there. Um if they're shooting people, if people are protesting, if things get better, if things don't get better, he's like, no one that lives here is going, right, to join the protest. And then, you know, you know what happens happens, people get shot, people die, and stuff like that. And I'm just like talking to him, why? And he's like, what is the point? Like he could have told me how this day was going to go, you know, before it even started. Like we can record all we want and we can film all we want, but as soon as it's time for, you know, when someone up there has had enough of all of this that's going on, all they have to do is make a phone call, make an announcement, and what will happen, what has always happened, will happen again. So I think, you know, he probably remembers or he's probably lived through some of these, would I even call it an uprising or revolution? I don't know what to call it.

TMT 35:12

He's lived through some of these Upr um Uprest, right? Unrest, unrest, civil unrest.

Steve 35:17

Yeah, civil unrest. But I mean like more like people trying to take, I don't want to say take back power either through the democratic process or through like, you know, organized, you know, he's lived through some of this before, and he's in how the government has just quailed it always. And so yeah, it's crazy that we don't learn this or they don't teach us this, and everything that I know about the civil war was through my father, who then learned it from his father. So there's a chance that you know something got missed along the line. And every time I get into an argument with someone else about the civil war, it's usually a tribal tribalist argument, anyways. Yep. It's all about what I know and what I was told versus what they know and what they were told, and we have no way of fact-checking who is right or who isn't, you know, we go on Wikipedia and it's political jargon that's spilled on there, and so it's not enough.

TMT 36:01

Yeah, you know, my mom told me that like their generation for context, my mom was 59. Okay, and she said their generation used to protest, and this is like the same generation, by the way, who again were like preventing their kids from going out and being like, listen, guys.

Steve 36:18

Yeah.

TMT 36:19

Also the same generation that like when everyone was like so tired of good luck, they were like, don't vote for worry. We're telling you, but I'm not, I mean, I'm not blaming anyone, but like my mom's generation, my mom told me that they were so bad. Like when it came to like protesting and stuff, they used to protest so much that like when I can't remember whose coup it was, but this was like this must have been like '88 or '89. They waited until a lot of them went NYS camp. Damn. And then they did the coup because these people like they would just go out into the streets and just so really so I mean just to see and I don't I don't even know if it's like I don't think they've been defeated, but like they've just seen so much that there's it's just it's gone. It's just like no, I you know, my watch has ended, I'm just going to protect protect my family now. Yeah, that's the best I can do.

Steve 37:19

Yeah, and and even if they've been defeated, I can't even blame them. Like, I see where this is headed for me as like a like if if there was a protest now, I'll show up, you know. Like all that, I don't want to say we're wasting our time, but all that stuff that we're doing here where I think AG had a protest in Houston, because I was in Houston at the time, and I went out and we recorded it and we put it on Instagram, we're like, yeah, supporting from Houston tech, dah dah dah, and stars, all that stuff. Like if they did it again today, I would do it. But like I'll see less numbers when I go there, and the next year it will be less numbers and less numbers until it's just six of you with there doing Instagram photo ops and stuff because nothing is happening, like nothing is you know changing.

TMT 37:55

So I mean, some things have changed in the sense that like because information is just a lot more democratized than it used to be, and Nigeria does have like an insane amount of young people because um we like procreation. Um, there's just so many, like so many young people. Uh I work in a production studio. Okay, there are literally people here who in my studio where like there are courses that cost thousands of dollars that would make them better editors, producers, whatever. And these guys would literally just sit in a corner and learn it on TikTok. And it's it's so and like I'm an internet boy. I'm genuinely like people when people when for a long time when people ask me why what I do, I just say I'm an internet guy without context. And that would like it would really piss them off or confuse them or whatever. But like I just say I'm an internet guy. I'm an internet guy, but I find it very very hard to like look at his screen for a long time, like a you know, smartphone, tablet. I'm just I yeah. Um when I tweet or post, I just post and then I throw my phone away. These guys learn, like they're getting whole like like film, they're going to film school on TikTok, and they're coming out with like insane skills. And it's just the same way for like history, knowledge dissemination. Like the moment they want to learn about something, the moment they're going to learn it. I have like, and I know it's like a little people, I just have I'm always going to have faith in the next generation because at some point the work does get done. Amen. You know, it does get done. Like, for I mean, America wasn't like, I mean, America is insanely corrupt. Sorry, Americans. It's true, like you guys know now. Nobody's even hiding inside the way no one's trying to pretend like you're not corrupt anymore. We're out there. But like in terms of like just like insane-based like Nigeria level corruption, America was there, you know.

Ese 39:52

Yeah, yeah.

TMT 39:53

So it's an it's an old country, like all these old countries, they've been there. I think we'll find our feet. Will it be too late? I don't know. Time is time is fun. Like, it's weird. We'll see how it goes. But like, I think we'll get there. I have a lot of faith in the country.

Steve 40:09

Um, yeah, yeah. I'll I'll drink to that next time. Next time I have a drink. Um, let's talk set design, going back to the film for a second. Um I guess I say, how would you or how were they able to recreate some of these things? And if the answer is very simple, then my apologies. But it felt like it looked, it sounded, it felt very in its time, you know, like some of the buildings. I think there was like a shot of would it be National Theater? There was like a shot of something in one of the montages and like the way the way it looked and the way it felt, the buses, the cars, and stuff like that. So how easy or feasible were were they able to, you know, create some of that stuff and especially in Lagos? Like this was pre you know '99. Pre-was this pre-tenable? I would like, I think it was.

TMT 40:55

It's it's definitely pre-tenable.

Steve 40:57

It's 1999. Yeah. Okay. So how how was how were they able to do some of this?

Ese 41:03

Yeah, so it's a combination of like a couple of things. One is that like unfortunately, but beneficially to the film, we don't have a great maintenance culture here. Um, so there's a lot of things that look like they would fit like very seamlessly in the 90s. Um, so from like a locations point of view.

Steve 41:23

Yeah, that's crazy. That is crazy.

Ese 41:26

So from like a locations point of view, there's like places that like, yes, you all haven't really done much since '93, probably. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like it's great. And so um, I mean, what we do from like at least like fatherland and our own approach to filmmaking is that when you leave this space, like you leave it either the same or better. And so, like, if we're going in and we need to paint and stuff to make it work, like it's but not because the paint is back to the original face wave because if it was bad, like it's like, okay, we've got a new paint job as part of our production type of thing. And on the other hand, it's like a mix of like the art department, the um AD department, the unit department, the security department, um coming together to like execute certain things. So like the scenes where they're like um in a roundabout, they're sitting on a bench and there's this a um there's a billboard of like a white preacher, like they're sitting around about this Costain, like right where um theater is, and we would just have to close down the um roundabouts for like 20 minutes to shoot the scene. We would get our picture vehicles that were all like 90s vehicles. Well, technically, the art department did like amazing research and they realized that like, oh, like because these are like working class um people, a lot of the cars that they would have had would actually have been from the 80s, honestly, the 90s.

Steve 42:46

The 90s, okay. Yeah.

Ese 42:47

So you get you the cars, the fashion might be more like 80s as opposed to like '93. But just because things tend to trickle to Nigeria, we don't necessarily get things like immediately.

Steve 42:58

Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ese 43:02

And then they also our department again, they just again, because we have such a like a poor archiving um culture, like the way they sort of figured out how to um really like infuse those like authentic 90s elements was like literally going through their own family photos. So like their mood boards and stuff were like pictures from their own families in the 90s, which made like delved, allowed this film to like really delve deeper into this idea of like it's a personal story that's like happening parallel to a political story, right? So a combination of like a lot of departments just doing like really hard work and like taking it personally to the point of like going to ask you for like, please can you give me the pictures of you when you were around this age, around that time? Yeah.

Steve 43:49

Yeah. I'm not gonna lie, that is kind of sad. Like that is like obviously it's good work, great work that they've done, but it's sad that you can't pull up a, you know, a valid You know, I don't know, two minute video of what this place would look like on at this time and you have to go through your own the great work to them. Great like I wasn't alive at that time, sorry, to the prehistoric folks, but uh excuse me, wait, wait, wait, wait.

TMT 44:12

Hold on.

Steve 44:15

My bad, my bad, my bad. I'm sorry.

TMT 44:20

Hold on, you guys. How old are you guys?

Steve 44:22

Do you need a back brace, bro? Like, you know.

TMT 44:24

I do, but shut up. Oh man. Um well before we You're pushing 30. How old are you guys if you don't mind me asking? It's fine.

Ese 44:36

My birthday is in two days. I turned 28 in two days.

TMT 44:39

Oh. Happy birthday.

Ese 44:41

TMC stressed.

TMT 44:43

I'm so upset. I hate this so much. Oh my god. Okay, um, also quick um no back crunch before we move forward. June 12th, 1999. Tinubu became what?

Steve 44:57

What do you mean?

TMT 44:58

Wait, no.

Ese 44:59

He said 99.

TMT 45:01

Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I meant 93. Never mind, never mind. Um Tinubu was um still in America. Oh, we're still pushing drugs. Let's guess who the governor was. Come on, come on, come on, come on.

Ese 45:15

Governor of Lagos State? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

TMT 45:19

Michael Otedola.

Steve 45:22

Ain't no way, dog.

Ese 45:23

I did not know that.

Steve 45:25

I did not know that.

TMT 45:26

Yeah, so oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

Steve 45:33

It's been it's been many years of people just getting rich off of Nigeria, man.

Ese 45:39

Like if like really, like everything changes and everything stays the same.

Steve 45:44

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, amazing what the the on the set on the set design and stuff. I thought that was, I mean, after the cinematography and like the authenticity of the writing, I feel like that was also a part that I took away. Like, this is tremendous work. I did have one question. What was that with the fish? What did that mean? What did that represent on the beach? What was that? I don't think that's an experience that I have experienced in Lagos. It's something was experienced in Lagos. Okay, but did it say was it meant to signify anything? Because after that, I kind of just cut and then they go back to the ice cream scene.

TMT 46:21

And have you never seen the sea pork video? Cool, you guys are so young. It must be so cool. Holy crap. What is it? Is the f is is the scene you're talking about with the um the shark of fish. Yeah, it washes up and they eat it.

Steve 46:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TMT 46:37

So, like, hold on, I need to get the yeah. Sea Pork. Okay, but it's a common occurrence, but that was the first time, that was the first time it went viral. Oh, okay. In the sense that like it was the first time that non-sea people were like, it just it came online in Nigeria. Um, I can't remember what year it was, but basically, I want to say like 2015-16. A whale washes up on the shore in Lagos, okay. And I believe it's dying or dead, but either way, people, it's like obviously like it's like the advent of smartphones. Everyone has smartphones at this period, and people are making videos. SEA PORK, SEA S E A P O R K. And they're like, they have buckets and they're getting and they're getting pieces of it, they're chopping it up on the beach, and they're taking it home to eat. And I was just like, I was just like, oh my god, this is how COVID happened. But obviously, there was no COVID, there was no COVID then. This was pre-COVID, but it was just like on I'll never forget Sea Pork. In fact, I'm going to search it on Twitter.

Steve 47:52

It's funny as hell. Yeah, yeah.

TMT 47:54

Sea Pork was like music.

Steve 47:55

I saw that and I'm like, I watched this, and obviously, the I know that everything is authentic up until this point. Like, I I feel like that guy said Fan Ice, right? He could have said ice cream, he could have said something else. Like, okay, sidebar, I think credit to tech and like because tech was like the writer, I credit to him for including as little exposition as possible. Like, I would think, okay, if you're trying to market this to a broad audience, you know, which they were successful in doing, you would make some of the things be more, you know, if someone says something, you have another character explaining what it is. But they didn't do any of that. Like everything is very, if you get it, you get it. If you know it, you know it, right? And if you don't know it, well, just keep watching. So I liked that he did that. But when they got to that scene, I'm like, okay, I don't think this is something they made up because everything else is original, but I don't know what is how like what is this? What what does this even mean? And then after that, we don't get any, you know, there's no resolution to that whole thing. No one gets hurt or anything, they just cut and then they're buying ice cream. So that one was lingering in my brain, and I had to force myself to stop thinking about it. But yeah, just be curious about that. Was I a real fish? Do you know? I say.

Ese 49:03

Do I know if I was a real fish? I feel like I can't answer that question. I don't know, man. I was just fascinated by the biggest. My mind just went.

TMT 49:18

No, I was gonna say I'm a lawyer, and I'm just going to advise you not to.

Steve 49:23

The shield high, that's fine. We can move on. We can move on. Um, it's gonna switch gears a lot to Sope's performance. Um at the after party for the film, I kind of asked, I asked Akinola a bunch of questions. One of the questions I asked him was more critical of the casting because I felt everyone else was original or you know, maybe they've worked outside of Nigeria, but a bunch of the cast is, you know, locally sourced, especially two kids. And I felt he isn't, right? He's largely done stuff outside uh Nigeria, and in certain sense, like he does a tremendous job. He's like I in my introduction, I said the wondrous Dirisu, he does a tremendous job with the intonation, the pigeon, the Yoruba. You can hardly tell that, you know, this is not the way he talks all the time, but it still filters in here and there. And so I asked him, you know, why he cast it was like meant to be, you know, because they're remembering their dad through memories, through stories that they've told them as opposed to first-hand memories. And so this person that's kind of foreign but not really is supposed to represent that, or if it was just they wanted someone good. And he kind of gave me the politically correct answer, the media trained answer, where, oh, we wanted a big name, he's fantastic, he does a wonderful job. And we also wanted this film to be accessible to a wider range, and so we wanted someone that was very familiar to Nigerian faces, but also to the public faces, and so that's why they went with him. But I thought he did a fantastic job. I thought he was great, like in his role, but I also thought he was great with the kids, right? Like his chemistry with the kids, and it was believable. Like I believed for a second there that this was your dad, you know. I believed the way he took care of them, the way he was with them, and the scene at the at the beach again when, you know, the stampede is happening, and then he runs, you know, without even thinking. Or even before that, when he's crying and he, you know, covers his eye. It reminded me of the first time I saw my dad cry. Where, and that was his thing. He tried to move his eyes away to cover his eyes to not so I wouldn't see him crying. So yeah, I thought he did a fantastic job, and I was just wondering we could talk about him for a second. Feel free to glaze if you must.

Ese 51:38

Um, I mean, I'll talk about Akin's answer just because I think tend to think things through from the production-producing point of view, and it's not necessarily politically correct, it's just the reality of things, right? Like when you're making films that sort of need to exist for an international audience or have certain sort of financing that will feel sort of contingent on like um your ability to sell the film to an international audience, things like casting are extremely important. And so while yes, and acting will acting was so specific and like very honest about like finding and casting like Nigerian actors and actors that work within Nollywood because it was so important that like I think he brought in a recent article, he was like as someone who identifies as being a part of Nollywood. And I was like, even that like took me. I was like, oh, it's good to know that you think of yourself that way. Um it's a it's a thing of like this is how we get the resources into our own communities to make the film. And if you're blessed enough to have someone like Shape who took it extremely seriously and who was in Yoruba lessons from the day that he landed and was going to Lagos Island, um to go just like experience being there and was giving us heart palpitations and um was really like committed to being like entrenched in entrenched in this and was doing dialect coaching and all of that. Like if you're blessed enough to have an actor who can bring you an audience but is willing to tell the story and tell it well, then like that's a wonderful, yeah. Like, why not honestly get the best of both worlds?

Steve 53:12

Yeah, fair enough. That's fair.

TMT 53:14

I agree with you, that's why I cast him as well.

Ese 53:20

Like joke, like joke, TMT's film will come out and Sope will be in it.

TMT 53:24

No, no, Shopee won't be in it. I've seen gangs, I've seen gangs of London.

Steve 53:32

But yeah, and I think for the further to that point, the film allowed us to get like a certain vulnerability of black fatherhood on screens. And I think think of some older stuff like John Q, Pursuit of Happyness, Fences, and then some more recent ones like Moonlight, Waves, King Richard. Wait, I mean, they're not all like in Moonlight, they're not all playing fathers, but they're playing a father figure. I think this film does that very well, right? The black man is typically portrayed in like a not very emotional way, you know, meant to be, you know, kill or be killed way a lot of times, you know, gangbanger or broke or a villain, right? Vulnerability is something that we see here and there, and every time we see it, it's because it's so few and far between that they end up getting nominated for an Oscar, you know, King Richard, Moonlight, and stuff like that. I mean, Moonlight, he literally won it for that. Um, and this is because it's so free and far between. But I think this film does it really well where they allow him to be vulnerable in different, in different ways, you know, with the money, the money scene. He's trying, he's trying to whisper and like hide it a bit, but like you can tell like his kids are there, man. Like he's talking he's asking for his bread that he's old, by the way, in front of his kids. Like he's trying to go about this with a certain way. Um, the scene at the beach when he's telling a story that's very personal to him. He's also trying to hide it. But you see on his face, like this is a very, very vulnerable moment for him. And I see him as a human being. Like, I'm not even thinking about the kids right there. I'm feeling his pain as someone who's lost someone right there. And yeah, so I I I think that's another thing that I really liked that was baked into this film. And yeah, did you guys feel that way about the father?

TMT 55:19

Um, absolutely. I mean, there's a scene where he apologizes to Remi, yeah. And I'm just like, whenever I see stuff like that in films, I mean I complain about Nollywood E law, but I watched my first show of Nollywood movies. Whenever I say dad apologize to this kid, I'm just like, nah, you lost me. I was with you till then. But I think this felt different because he he was also apologizing to himself for not showing up. You know, it's like it it's like the past version of himself that did those things or omitted this thing, it was apologizing to this version of himself. Like, and that's what like real regret feels like.

Steve 56:09

Yeah.

TMT 56:10

You know, um, tell it's like tell me why you're sorry, you know, and he tells him why he's sorry, and I just it felt really real because a real apology is just it's always going to feel real, whether it's from a Nigerian man or Europa man who is cheating on his wife and taking his kid to like the same place where his mistress works at, but not really because he's not really he's not really there, but it just it's it feels real. When real people do real things and they perform well, it feels real. Yeah, and just going back again, perfect casting. Yeah, vulnerability through the roof. I felt it. Yeah.

Ese 56:49

I've I've never not cried seeing Sope perform that specific thing. Like from seeing him read the script, seeing him perform it before there was score and music, seeing it with like fully composed and everything every single time. I cry. Because it's just like a masterful like delivery of like, like you said, just like blackmail vulnerabilities. Like be it's beautiful.

Steve 57:13

Yeah, tremendous work. And I think also with the I think that was the first time I teared up was when and I don't I don't really understand that part of the. I've seen it twice, I don't really understand that part, but the guy that's like the security guard telling, you know, they're talking, like I don't know what role he's representing exactly, but when he's talking to him, and I think that's the first person in the film that makes us acknowledge that he's dead. But when he's like, help me tell her talking about his wife and how he didn't really show that he loved her. I thought that was also very that was a show of vulnerability as well. A quick question. Why did they add in that, or does anyone know what the writing was trying to tell us with the whole affair aspect of it? Because they again, like, this is a real person that we're working with, right? A real person to the writer and the director. But I think in moments when we're re-writing or retelling history, we tend to polish it a bit, we tend to, you know, only show the good aspects and stuff like that. So I think it was a choice, a conscious choice for them to show that. But I didn't really understand why they would show that their dad was having an affair. And I don't know how I feel if I like it or not yet. But I want to hear, I'm curious to hear what you guys think about that. Um I loved it.

TMT 58:26

Yeah, thank you. I love that. Yeah, I think so. I think um I think I don't think affairs are good, obviously. I think when I comedy delivery, man.

Ese 58:44

I like it so much. We should go.

TMT 58:46

I think affairs are horrible. Okay, they're disrespectful to man, woman, and God and the Holy Spirit.

Ese 59:01

Amen.

TMT 59:03

Amen. And that that's my take. I think I think affairs are bad, and I think I'm very brave for saying that. Okay, I'm done this time, I'm really done. I think um, I think it was really cool to like I think when you write about someone as important as your dad, your first instinct is to mythologize him. Whether good or bad, um, I think you're going to make him either a prolific saint or just a philanderer, right? Horrible person. How about both? How about having a man who was like just so raw and honest and like you know, that he could have a vulnerable moment like that with his son, but also um expose them to the darker sides of himself and his failings and stuff like that. I thought it was really important. I think it's really important to be able to tell stories about people like that, especially Nigerian storytelling. Just like a person can be again MLK and still, hey. Do not do un-MLK things, but I guess they are MLK things because he did them, aren't they? So um that's people, man. That's men. I think and it's no, it's true. Like men can be great and just be Okay. Yeah, I'm not saying like men cheat all the time. I'm saying men can be someone with that much, yeah. Someone who's like who cares about his kids that much, and who I think, just going back to where he apologizes and where he's like the way he deals with them through the course of the story, I think there's a lot of I think kids learn how to be adults from how adults deal with them, in the sense that like when you have a dad that's able to be that vulnerable with you, and when they're wrong, say, I'm sorry, this is why I did that, and it's not an excuse, it's a reason why I'm sorry, you shouldn't be when a dad can do that. It means like you're going to grow up and you're going to hold every single person you deal with accountable.

Steve 1:01:20

Yeah, yeah.

TMT 1:01:21

But that same person is also just you know, he's he when he when he then exposes you to you know affairs and dealing with that, and you're going to have these interactions that are seemingly like normal, and then you grow up and you're like, that wasn't normal. I think there's something really powerful about that. And I think, you know, as much as these guys are trying to tell the story, and you know, the production team and everyone is trying to like make it as authentic as possible. I see a lot of no pun intended shadow work and like just therapy and just like trying to like, you know, I think there's a lot of that in this film. The first time I watched this film, I was like, I'm never watching this again because it's like it's just so raw. It's like very, like, it's very it's heavy, it's heavy. Um, I will say this though, it's also so like there are parts that's that are so funny. And I think that's like the with a good drama, a good drama is just like the main thing you're going for is just honesty and storytelling. That's why like when you have like shows that like that are really raw. Yeah, the stuff that's like meant to be like just a ha-ha joke becomes a belly laugh because it's so real, and that's how that's why things like succession are so successful. Because it's like it's just really raw human behavior. It's witty as well, but like when you have really raw human behavior, everything becomes 10 times funnier, everything becomes like 10 times more emotional. The sadder parts are super sad, the heavy parts are super heavy. Um what was the question again?

Steve 1:03:00

It's just basically about Abike's his relationship with Abike and Yeah, yeah.

TMT 1:03:04

No, I think you know, like why I think it was really brave, honestly, and it was a risk in terms of like just being able to write about mythologize your own father and tell that side of him in a way that you still I still ended up not disliking him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve 1:03:22

I want to hear his perspective as well.

Ese 1:03:28

And it's so interesting because like he goes in that scene, like he's ranting about how much he loves their mom. Like he literally tells me. Right before that, he's telling the story of how they met and how he chased her and everything, and how lucky he felt when she was like, I can escort me, um, and all of that. And like five seconds later, he's like in a back alley with this girl. Um, and so, but it like, and it you see it and it's like, what I think when I read this, I was like, gosh, damn it, you're about to.

Steve 1:04:00

Um you're bringing his main.

Ese 1:04:05

Um but it's like it's again this thing of like we want to tell a story about a human being. And especially when you're thinking about it from a kid's perspective, it is very easy to like lionize this man and like throughout this, you get little pockets of emotion and seeing like his flaws, but really like understanding him as someone who like again is not perfect in the way that their children would, in where his children would consider him to be perfect, like he's walking down the streets and everybody's hailing him, 'Capo', and like he goes places and they can, he can get he gets them access into an amusement park with like no questions asked, things like that. So to not even like I think the thing that fascinated me more about that scene is that like they didn't give it the Baba treatment. So the scene that he has with Baba is one of the few where like it's not from the children's perspective, it is they're not there in that scene, they're not looking at it. Okay, there's an interaction between two adults. Um and but with Abike, like the only part of it that you see are the parts that like Remi sees. So even to like Akin and Wale's choice to have this scene entirely be about again, Remi's perception of his father and not even Folarin's own issues about like his marriage or this extramarital affair he's having, it's about the way you perceive your dad when you start to understand things about him that aren't so pleasant. I think it's like again, just leaning into this idea of like telling a very, very human and honest story.

Steve 1:05:33

And no, I agree with I agree with what you've said. And I think I had talked it during the film that okay, a lot of this is from your perspective, you know, when they see the aunt and she's obviously very, very shocked to see him and stuff like that because you know he's dead. But that scene, the scene with the Baba, like that felt very I was I was rapping with that one, but what you've just said makes sense. Like we're not like you send them to play their plane and stuff like that. I like what you've also just said, uh, TMT, about well, those are MLK things because he did them. So yeah, those were they're telling the story about, you know, their imagination of their dad, and this is who their dad was. You know, it's not no need to polish it, no need to shine. It's maybe this is just me, Nigeria eye service. Maybe that's what's why I'm thinking, oh, why would you do that to your father? But I need to do that.

Ese 1:06:24

I mean, it's not like entirely like an autobiographical tale of their father, like it's inspired by like the idea of a memory, but like this also, like bash the Davies' dad, like that. Um like I think like they take like a lot of free reign. And Folarin's talk about that, like when he sort of took on the role, like Akin and Wale were very clear that we're not asking you to come here and try and play our dad or a version of our dad. This is a Nigerian man and he's representative of a lot. But I do understand like this idea of like, why would you take a man who seems so like perfect and is this some exact this perfect example of like black male vulnerability and cares for his children and just wants to take care of them and it's flawed in that aspect where you understand the sacrifice he's making, and then you have him do this very like pointedly awful thing. Um but it's like it's a way to like just recognize people as like human.

TMT 1:07:20

Yeah, I I think because we're in the age of um everything recorded and everything sort of contextualized in real time now, with like comparisons of how other dads are and like just what his father is supposed to be. People know, you know, people are kids are less sheltered, like about who their parents are and who they project to be. There's this YouTube video, it's a Nigerian like um Jubilee-esque video where like kids confront their like horrible dads, mostly men, and there's this one guy who says you used to flog me before school, regardless of if I did anything or not. And I honest to God thought his dad was going to be like, That's insane, I didn't do that. And his dad was like, Yeah, because I wanted you to if you want if I wanted the situation to be that if you thought about doing anything bad, you remember the king. So I was flogging in advance, and I was just like, God for what it's what this came out like three days ago. Wow, yeah, it's not old. Wow. These are these are the these are the parents of Gen Z kids. So it's I mean it's it's horrible, but it's like also for a lot of these guys, the younger people, just you see them now and can sort of figure out figure out um if you have a good dad or a bad dad. You talk to people and you watch videos and you see things like that. But like for people who grew up in a time before that, I think Sope's character in this is very reminiscent of the classic Nigerian dad who's like especially one who isn't overly like religious, he doesn't have he he's not hiding behind any religion in terms of he's very he's very much a Nigerian dad, but there's no oh God told us this. He's like, listen, um this is who I am and this is who I want you to to think I am, and I'm sorry I'm not that sometimes. And you know, it's it's it's very it's a beautiful I honestly I think as much as it's a great story and it benefits um his um um sort of historical awareness, right? I think the generation that will learn the most from this are our parents' generation, and maybe the guys just below them and above them. I think they'll watch this movie and I don't think a lot of them will be able to handle it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think they're going to see the apology and they're going to like see their dads telling them that, and a lot of them are going to break down. I think they're going to see how the charisma his character exude. A lot of Nigerian men just want to be their dads because their dads were very charismatic men. You know what I mean? So I think they're going to see a lot of aspects of that character, and it's going to break them. So um I can't wait for that, honestly. I'm super excited about the U the UK release. How long is it in Cinemas 4, by the way?

Steve 1:10:38

Not that long. Well, it came out in the UK last weekend, it came out in US and Canada this weekend. Okay. Yeah. And I don't know if it's getting an extended run. So like what we're looking like for 45 days.

Ese 1:10:51

There's screenings like all through this month. I don't know what exactly the end date is, but it's like go watch it because the better it does, the more time it gets. Um but yeah, like there's like definitely like they're hopping around doing special screenings, but like it's in theaters for like a bit, yeah.

TMT 1:11:09

Yeah, guys, go watch it, please. And it's like I think it's like you you how they deal with MUBI?

Steve 1:11:14

Yeah, it's it was acquired by MUBI.

TMT 1:11:17

It was acquired by MUBI, yeah. Yeah, so please, unless you want to pay 10 pounds for MUBI, watch it now, enjoy it with your family, like have the whole little bonding session.

Ese 1:11:28

Go with your daddy, go with your mommy.

Steve 1:11:30

Go with your mom, go with your dad. Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of people, because I was talking to someone about this film, and I think I kind of approached it. I'm not going to say who to protect the privacy, but it's someone that lost your dad, and the person is also Yoruba. So I was explaining it from the aspects of, oh, this could be like um personal to you. And you could go there and you could relate to this, and that actually turned them off from watching it. But then when I like again rewatched it, I'm like, I'm not Yoruba, I don't, I didn't lose my dad, and I still felt very emotional at the end of this whole. I think they the brothers were able to create a film that transcends some of these lines of division that we've drawn for ourselves, where even when they're speaking Yoruba, I don't feel like I'm taking I'm missing anything. You know what I mean? And granted, there's subtitles, but even without the subtitles, like if you were Nigerian, even if you didn't have subtitles, even if you didn't know what I was reading, like just the way they turned their backs to the kids and like he's tapping his hand and stuff. Like there's things where you said communal, I think that was the word you had used earlier essay, but there's things that you think, okay, I know what this is in my head. I don't really talk, like I can't really put this, describe this in words, but then when I'm seeing it, you know, I know exactly what's happening. So I say all that to say, just go see it. Like this, this is very original, very authentic. I've used that word so many times. But and it's made by us and it's for us. Like, we're the target audience, man. Anyone can see it, but it's for us, it's very, very for us. So yeah. Um, do we think that we can get more film like these in Nigeria today? Do we think like there's challenges around making a film like this? And I know, you know, like I think Jen. But like good movies. I mean, Funke has good movies now. Come on. Funke has good movies. But Funke just became the highest grossing, you know, first her film that's out right now, I forget the name. Grossed a billion over a billion and cinemas, so she became the first with like four or five films to gross a billion. So we're doing, you know, this the space is doing good, but do we think we can get more films like these, you know, today in Nigeria?

TMT 1:13:31

I think um, I think I want one from Funke. Like one, like, and I like just a and I know she can do it. Like, I know she has the skill set to like make something like this happen. Hold on, relax. Like something too, like I think she can. I just I think and I think if she does, we need to get the exact cast. Not the same cast as this, but like whoever what whoever she ends up hiring and casting in the roles for this like super breathtaking um exploration of like a deep Nigerian topic, whatever. And I want to see them dance on social media. And I want I I just I need I need the skits, I need the videos, the TikToks, boom, outfit change, tick tock, whatever tick tock we're getting. Um, do I think we'll make movies? Yeah, I think I think we're going to see a not a lot more, but more. I think, yeah, I think um people want I think filmmaking is very algorithmic right now.

Ese 1:14:31

Yes.

TMT 1:14:31

And the people who can move away from that are like the next big legend. Someone once told me that like uh AI isn't going to take your job. People that use AI are going to take your job. Think people that after the people that take AI, that use AI take your job, the people that can make really cool stuff without AI are going to be your boss. Oh that's like yeah, that's like the next level. Yeah. Because I mean I've seen this thing about how like um I'm sure you guys have seen it as well. Like, movies that are going on streaming like Prime and Netflix are being written and like primed in like such a specific way that like you can use your phone and follow the film at the same time. And I think if you try to do that with this film, you would miss everything.

Steve 1:15:23

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 110%. Yeah, yeah. So that's why the theater experience for this film is kind of key. I think you need to see in theaters, you need to see with the right projection and just like locking. It's also not that long, man. It's very, very digestible.

TMT 1:15:40

And yeah, also it's a phenomenal group watch. Take a bunch of people and go. Don't go, don't go alone. Yeah, yeah. Go with go with a bunch of people, talk about it after, make a little gang line so that white people are scared when they walk past you. Just like in front of the cinema, just like a little huddle.

Steve 1:15:56

Yeah. Yeah. My thing with Funke though is not like no beef, obviously. I enjoyed the Jennifa, you know, films and shows, like everybody else. I just think. Okay, do I think do I think Jim Cameron can make your next um Oppenheimer or your next, I don't know, the Brutalist, or your next um Killers of the Flower Moon? I don't think so. And I don't think that's a bad thing because I don't think Cameron is a bad filmmaker. He's one of, is actually one of my favorite filmmakers. I love the Avatar movies, but I love them for what they are. I think Funke is, in some ways, like when I think about Funke, I think about her like James Cameron, which is how dare what do you mean how dare be? She's by no means bad. She's by no means we loved her once upon a time. She made an actual really good film, like a film that, you know, or a show or whatever that we can do. I think she's superior.

TMT 1:16:44

I think she's superior to James Cameron. I think she I think the only person I can really compare her to in the West is what's the name of that guy that does all those Americana movies? Um Americana movies um Richard Link later.

Steve 1:17:04

Oh, brother, please.

TMT 1:17:06

I think she captures the spirit of the Nigerian so well. It's almost scary sometimes. And I don't mean like if, for instance, if my father shadow captured the soul of a Nigerian, like the actual, you know, Funke gets like the meat and bones. Like she just she knows what makes us tick, she knows what makes us laugh, she knows what makes us like really ah, it wasn't great, but I enjoyed that. And most times when I live, when I when I leave a Nigerian cinema, I'm like, I yeah, what was that? But like Funke movies are like, I don't know what that was, but I really enjoyed it. But I do this again. Maybe if the next if another one comes out from the that's fair, that's fair. Yeah, but this my father's shadow is something, man. And I think in a world where it's like your life is very much people like routines now. It's safe, it helps us like you know, go about our lives in a specific way. I'm watching the same movies all the time, you're listening to mostly the same music. Don't settle with with cinema, go out and see something that like makes you, that shakes you, that breaks you. Like life is short. Like it live, live. And movies are a great way to live. Movies are a great way to like go through things that you weren't there for. And this is a thing. And it's an event. It's like, mmm, it's it's it's it's beautiful. Enjoy it.

Steve 1:18:24

You know, go do it. Yeah. Ese, do you think we can get more films like these in Nigeria today? Emphasis on today.

Ese 1:18:32

I do. I think like films like My Father's Shadow, Festivals like S16 Film Festival, speak to the fact that like, because it comes down to like thinking from a producing production, like the business of the industry perspective. The question that you sort of get asked is like, oh, do audiences actually want to see this film? And we took like UNILAG, like there were a bunch of like UNILAG students and like University of Ibadan students who went to see this and like loved it. Like who sat down outside the outside of the theater and made videos about how like beautiful they thought it was. Our team, some of our team members like were at like a UNILAG screening and said those kids were like rampants in that theater. Like in like a good way, like they were engaging with the film, they laughed really loud. So someone like at the end when they realized what was happening, like there's the Yoruba word, there's a Yoruba like mythology word for like um when someone who's past like sort of appears to like their family, people who are close to them afterwards, and I can't remember was like this as well. Yes, it was like an Alakuda or something like that, and one of the kids like yelled this out kind of thing. So the idea that like audiences want to engage with these films on both a like mental level and emotional level and on an entertainment level is untrue. Right? We've just assumed, like, I remember when I first like sort of like entered the industry, the thing that was like, oh, Nigerians just want to laugh. It's escapism, that's all like Nigerian audiences want. But you like we prove like with films like this and with festivals like S16 that like people want to engage in films like on multiple levels, and that these films that are quote-unquote, I don't know, like art house films or deep films or whatever you want to call them, still like appeal to like our sentiments as Nigerians. We see them ourselves in those movies because they capture who we are and the mundanity of our lives. And like people appreciate that and want to see it and will go see it and will pay to see it because at the end of the day, this is a business. Um and so like I think as more and more financiers, distributors, and people all along the pipeline of the business um understand that better, that we will start to see like we will definitely start to see more. Okay. Akudaya. Akudaya, yeah.

TMT 1:20:52

No. Also, yeah, just going back, just piggybacking off what um what essay said, I think the stories are very important, and I think they will reach people as long as the storytelling around the story, so the advertising essentially, we just have to find a bridge to reach people. Yes, yeah, and I think my father's shadow was like a good case study for that. Like it really contextualized the experience that you were going to experience.

Steve 1:21:21

Yeah. Yeah, I really hope, I really hope we get more, because I I found that when I was talking about these films, like it wasn't just one person. I had two people say, someone who's also been on this podcast said this was like the greatest African film that they've seen. And my initial reaction to that was broad chill, like, whoa, like what do you mean? But then I'm thinking about it, and like I'm coming up with some other films like Atlantics or whatever, which are great, but you can't say like those films blow this one out of the water. Like, this is good enough to be in such conversations, and it's not even that groundbreaking or that like you know, revolutionary in anything that it does. If anything, it does ever it does things that we've seen before, oftentimes, even it just does it, you know, pretty well. And I would like to see more, but then if you go looking for more, there's not really anything else like this. So I would like to see more films like this. And I hear what you're saying about it's you know, it's the business of it all. Unfortunately, the world is becoming increasingly capitalist, even countries that practice socialism and whatnot are capitalist in practice. So, you know, the intersection, the marriage of business and art is not going anywhere. And if these films aren't, if people aren't coming out to see these films, then they're not going to be made. So I'm glad to hear that, you know, like the people at UNILAG and stuff like that, like the everyday person, not not us, not me, not you, not our friends, like the literal everyday person is enjoying these films. Like that's I didn't know that that was I didn't know that that was happening. I think everyone I talked to about this is in film in some way or the other, like either a critic or a podcaster or a filmmaker or something.

Ese 1:22:57

But I'm glad to hear that, you know, this the number of people who are like lawyers and investment bankers and students who've seen this film and just been moved again by like learning history that they didn't know, or like just the personal aspects of the story. Like again, like when something like as when at its heart it's just telling like a human story, like it's the audience is limitless, to be very honest with you.

Steve 1:23:22

I hope, I really do hope we get some more. I mean, TMT, your future man, come on, be the next my father's shadow. Okay, you see, I won't let you try to accept Nigerians now, you can be next, man.

TMT 1:23:35

I think my father's shadow kind of reminds me of so my favorite film ever, ever, it's um The Death of Stalin. Okay, yeah, and it's it's literally what it has in common with my father's shadow is that it's one day, and it's the day Joseph Stalin dies in the um, you know, the Soviet Union, and all his cronies, all the people who closed up to this madman, basically are scrambling. And they're like trying to like grasp for power, his kids are running mad, everyone's it is truly one of the greatest comedies of all time, and it doesn't really get a lot of um what's the word? It doesn't get a lot of acclaim, but I know I know I know what that movie is, and I feel like one day it's going to have a retrospective because it's truly phenomenal, and I think um there's something about like movies that just take place in 12 to 48 hours. I think there's something very special and masterful about being able to tell a story in real time because you're not doing conversations, you're not you're not doing snapshots of events, there's no time. What you know, it's so hard. And I think this movie is going to be that for a lot of people. Yeah. It's so special. Listen, you only get you, I'm sure there might be like one, you'll only get a chance to see it in the cinema once in this particular like sense. There might be in festivals here and there, but if you want if you're trying to go with your whole family to experience something that was really big for a country and a family, yeah, go watch this movie, sit down, enjoy it, take your turn your phone off. You'll have it when you when you get out. Like turn your phone, turn your phone off, turn your brain on, just like be in the moment.

Ese 1:25:34

Immerse yourself in it, yeah.

Steve 1:25:36

Turn your phone off, turn your brain on. That is that is it. Thank you both so much. This was a great conversation, great to great film to talk about. Um yeah, go see it in cinemas, please, please, please. Uh TMT, thank you for coming on. SA, thank you for coming on. Do you guys have any closing words?

TMT 1:25:56

Um, watch the film, read the graphic novel, adaptation when it comes out, buy the merch. Seriously, support it. Yeah, yeah. Also, Ese do you, do you guys have merch?

Ese 1:26:08

Yes, we do actually. We have like uh go so hard.

TMT 1:26:10

That would go hard. I need some of the.

Ese 1:26:13

I don't have it here. We have we made like an onward book. You know the onward notesbook that the boys are using to cut out um the thing. So we have one that has like the you know the picture of the poster where he's carrying the boys. Oh, that would be cool. Yeah, DM us if you want us. DM us, my so the social media manager is going to kill me. DM us your tickets showing us that you went to go see the film that you went and watched the film, okay, and we will let you know if we can get you a copy of the open book.

Steve 1:26:47

If you if you do so much about the fish, I'll buy because I don't do so much about the fish, so like and then like yeah, yeah, that was an invitation to treat, not an offer.

TMT 1:27:00

Invitation to treat, yeah. So in law, like uh boring. In law, people like say it's an invitation to treat, it's not an offer. So if you DM us, it's like an invitation for us to make you an offer, it's not an offer.

Ese 1:27:15

Yeah, yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. But yeah, like let us write, like we read all the letterboxds, we read all the Instagram comments, we read all the Twitter posts, like there is a very long chain of us just sending like links and screenshots. Akin is I've seen somebody showed me like a like just scrolling of like a DM that they sent Akin saying, This is what I think about whether or not for lying is our life, and Akin actually responded to them. So, like, we love we love to talk your theories, we love to talk your questions, like reach out, man. We love Van Eds about this.

Steve 1:27:54

I was looking up the I don't know if it's called Adire. I'm so sorry if I'm butchering something, but the significance of the call. So I was looking that up um because I actually like the design so much. And I for some reason I went to Reddit and I saw Akin ola posted on Reddit. He was doing like an AMA, and it was just him just responding to random Reddit questions about the film. Like, really, and I'm like, how much time? Because this was two days ago or yesterday when he had the whole back-to-back panel thing. Like, how much time does this guy have?

Ese 1:28:22

But I don't know if he's getting the time to be disconnected online. Like, you're on a plane for this many hours, you're under screening, you're doing QA, and then you're traveling somewhere else where he finds time to be able to do that.

TMT 1:28:32

To be fair, to be fair, if you're like on a plane or trains for like long amounts of time, you get into a group.

Steve 1:28:42

Let's do Reddit. Yeah. But it's cool because now I think some of those people that probably ask questions that weren't necessarily planning and seeing it, there's a more personal reason for them to go see it now. And so I like when filmmakers do that. Some of those questions aren't so smart though. But hey, who am I to say what's smart or what isn't smart? Like, like some people debating if he's alive and then dies after the film, or if he's and I'm like, I don't know, man. Like I there was no point where I felt like he was alive. And I thought there were like, I don't know if we should talk about this on the podcast, but I felt like right from the beginning, it was quite clear that you know he wasn't meant to be there. He wasn't like he was lit, we're living. Has anyone seen um the Taika film JoJo Rabbit? Okay, Hitler in that crazy Hitler in that film is there. What I can say his name Hitler in that film is is from Akin um Folarin in this film is a more real version of Hitler in that film, in that obviously Hitler is not this whimsical, you know, jovial person and whatever, but in the mind of the kid, that's who he was, right? And so that's what we, the audience, are seeing him as. And so Folarin for this film, for me, the character that he's playing is through the eyes of this kid, like if there's any air of mystery around him, it's because the kids don't really understand what's happening. If there's any air of like sternness around him, it's because the kids see him as being stern. And if there's any air of love or whatever around him, especially when, you know, I don't know, he's talking about his mom or whatever, like that's because that's what the kids are feeling from the sorry, not his mom, their mom. That's what they're feeling through his eyes. And so I don't know why anyone would see that and think he was alive. Maybe the birds staying in the sky every time, you know. Maybe they were like, oh, okay, he's alive, but he's about to die, and that's why the birds are circling in the sky. I think he was alive.

Ese 1:30:40

Somebody I know like I know somebody who would have a very heated debate with you about this, and it would actually be great to bring on your podcast. I might actually just connect you to but why do you think he was alive?

TMT 1:30:53

Because I think there's a super charismatic um Yoruba man inside all of us. Inside all of us, yeah. And I think that's kind of that was the whole point of the film. We are him, he is us.

Steve 1:31:12

It's not Yoruba man.

TMT 1:31:13

Also, June June 12th was bad.

Steve 1:31:16

Yes, June 12 was bad, and that was that was a big point, but there's no Yoruba man inside of me. Hey, yo pause man, but yeah, okay, so you're saying the Yoruba man or him, like who he represents, is a real thing, and that's what was alive. Not necessarily like the person himself was alive, but you're saying, like, no, just talking nonsense.

TMT 1:31:38

Don't take me seriously, man. Come on, you know what this is.

Steve 1:31:41

It's late, it's late, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's that was just one thing to me that I felt they did really well, and it's like, you know, but hey, man, that's the beauty of art. It's open to interpretation. People take what they want. But yeah, thank you guys, thank you both so much. I know it's super late, but we appreciate this. Um, go see my father shadow, go see it. I've made many people go see it. I keep telling people to go see it, and please go see it. Great film. Cinemas today, cinemas forever, cinema live on. So yeah, thank you both. Bye.